Nissan GT-R "Spanks" 997 Turbo...

[dewolf]

[QUOTE=DDDD;3869689) Some of us fellow enthusiasts just happen to want a little more old school put back into the marque. Less weight and less gadgets and less creature comforts. [/QUOTE] Then stick with your 'old' car and you'll be happy. If you have not been in a GT3, even an early one, go to your local Porsche club cruise day and ask someone to take you for a ride. The sound of the motor alone as it passes 7500rpm is awe inspiring. The amount of stopping power available is also amazing. Do yourself a favour and get a ride by hook or by crook.

[Reaper930]

Well after helping my good buddy break in his 2002 996 turbo, with all of its AWD 415 horse, I still prefer the feel of a stripped down big hp 930. Its more in connection I think, but its just an opinion.

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by Reaper930

Well after helping my good buddy break in his 2002 996 turbo, with all of its AWD 415 horse, I still prefer the feel of a stripped down big hp 930. Its more in connection I think, but its just an opinion.

That's the point though, the 930 wasn't a stripped out road car. It had all the luxo stuff as well. For the day, it was a well equipped, very fast 'road' car. The 997T of today is no different. It is a well equipped, very fast road car. Any car that does 0-60 in under 4 secs can hardly be called soft. That is bordering on brutal acceleration.

[RarlyL8]

Any car that does 0-60 in under 4 secs can hardly be called soft. That is bordering on brutal acceleration.

Bordering? I must be getting soft. Brutal in my book.

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by RarlyL8

Bordering? I must be getting soft. Brutal in my book.

Agreed, it is brutal

[jurhip]

I don't think this is worth arguing about, but the main difference is buyers have changed. For $80K+ how many people want to explain why there car doesn't come with carpet, good sound insulation, etc. How many people really want that in a modern street car? 5-10%? If so, buy an Elise or build a Super 7.

People were probably having this same argument when the late 80's 930 came out. "Oh they are so heavy and GT-like, my 911S/RS (enter nice longhood here) had everything you could need and is so light and nice. Who needs AC and power seats, quietness in a sports car........Porsche is losing its soul...."

The new cars are faster, while being quieter and more luxurious. For 95% of all consumers, this is better. The remainder 5% have old cars to choose from.

There is an old engineering saying that goes something like the best car could carry 8 people and their stuff (i.e. van) , but accelerate and handle better than any sports car.
This is not really possible, but it is usually the goal.

[DDDD]

Originally Posted by dewolf

WTF are you talking about. They aren't 'unenthusiastic' about the base model, it's just the upper models represent more of what Porsche stands for. Power, handling and creature comforts. Don't forget, 930's had air-con, power windows, electric seats, leather trim etc. This was considered a luxurious super car. So now because they go like sh$t and handle brilliantly and have all the mod cons modern technology brings, they've gone 'soft'. Gimme a break. Hey, I loved my 930, but after driving a GT3 I realised what a friggin' dinosaur it really was. And that's not demeaning the car, its' the truth.

Assuming you have a paltry 25-30 dealerships in all of Australia, they are selling one base model 911 per month.

You see the data as meaning one thing and I see it as meaning low demand.

[DDDD]

Originally Posted by dewolf

Then stick with your 'old' car and you'll be happy. If you have not been in a GT3, even an early one, go to your local Porsche club cruise day and ask someone to take you for a ride. The sound of the motor alone as it passes 7500rpm is awe inspiring. The amount of stopping power available is also amazing. Do yourself a favour and get a ride by hook or by crook.

You and I both agree that they are amazing cars. And you should go buy one if that is what you want.

I have also read dozens of magazine reviews and seen plenty of video footage and heard a lot of testimony that there are many other great cars out there that represent a lot better value and comparable or better performance. The 996 GT3 is widely known to have certain handling issues at the limit. Something about a 50 year old rear engine design, I suppose.

I personally can't be satisfied unless Porsche is the PERFORMANCE benchmark. As in #1, wave the checkered flag. The bells and whistles don't do much for me. I take it personally when Ferrari beats us. Or when Porsche artificially constrains their best product, the mid engine chassis, simply to make more money.

The ironic thing is that Porsche sales are dropping hard in USA because of the possible recession and I believe that we also will see a higher percent of 'premium' car sales since the rich will still be rich and the rest of us just won't find any value at all in base model 911s or lesser engined Caymans, and will stick with what we got.

[Hayabusa]

I remember when I was sixteen years old and I had my first car for maybe a month or so; a 1967 Camaro SS 350 w/4spd.

I had pulled up to a Seattle favourite hamburger stand - Dick's on 45th,,, and after ordering my Deluxe burger, fries and chocolate milkshake,,,

the kid behind the window leaned into the window from inside and said, "Hey, you see that station wagon with the wood grain sides over there!?",, I said, 'yeah!' as I collected my bag of food,,,

He said continuing, "Well, I have installed a huge motor and trans in it and have my horsepower up around a thousand,, and that little wagon will BEAT your Camaro in a race!!!"

I looked at him and grabbed a fry out of the bag as I prepared to walk away, flopped it in my mouth and said, 'Yeah! Really!? Well,, if that ever did happen,, when the two of us pulled up to each other after the race was done,,, you would STILL HAVE THAT PIECE OF ***** WAGON!'

That was one of the best burgers I have ever eaten from that place! Went down,, oh so good!

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by DDDD

Assuming you have a paltry 25-30 dealerships in all of Australia, they are selling one base model 911 per month. I bet you have 50 or more dealerships.

You see the data as meaning one thing and I see it as meaning low demand.

Sorry, only have 11 Porsche Centres Australia wide. Unlike the U.S and Canada combined with a population of @290M we have a grand population of @20M.

[Maxx1]

I've always been a fan of Japanese Engineering. They went from imitators to innovators and they easily proved they could build a decent product.

One of the problems with the Japanese cars is, there has always been a 'cheapness' associated with them. My buddy has a TT Supra, and while it can completely trash my 930 performance wise, the thing squeaks and creaks over every bump. There are so much plastic in the dash and the cheesy looking controls are just funky to look at. Nissan IMO is even worse. Whoever designs the interiors and dash layouts is not from this Planet..... I just don't think it's going to look good 5 years from now..... In fact, the 350Z is so funky, it doesn't even look good today! I would never own one. I don't know if the GT-R is much improved, but I don't think I would care to buy one and watch its value drop like a rock over the next few years. Another problem is, the Japanese cars are redesigned so often that the newest, latest greatest revision causes the older car's to lose value sometimes almost overnight.

All that being said, I think in comparing to the Porsche you have to look at the total package. Porsche is pretty much an established icon and really is such a nicely refined sports car, how can you go wrong?

Real world sports car enthusiasts have been known to drive Porsches! If you want to be tied in with the racer-boy, ricer crowd, than maybe the Nissan is the way to go!

[polizei]

Originally Posted by DDDD

I personally can't be satisfied unless Porsche is the PERFORMANCE benchmark. As in #1, wave the checkered flag. The bells and whistles don't do much for me. I take it personally when Ferrari beats us. Or when Porsche artificially constrains their best product, the mid engine chassis, simply to make more money.

It's important to remember that Porsche is primarily a business with shareholders who care more about EPS than lap times.

[jess p]

Depends on what magazine you read. The porsche is faster in 0-60 and top
end. So how does the gtr spank the porsche when its slower.

[DDDD]

Originally Posted by dewolf

Sorry, only have 11 Porsche Centres Australia wide. Unlike the U.S and Canada combined with a population of @290M we have a grand population of @20M.

Glad to hear it. At least they can move a 911 a week. The article you quote clearly states that Australia is the exception, and not the rule, so I doubt we can go much further with such a small sample size at this point.

[DDDD]

Originally Posted by polizei

It's important to remember that Porsche is primarily a business with shareholders who care more about EPS than lap times.

That is about the most obvious thing that comes out of this type discussion. Porsche is interested in being the most profitable car company on earth, with the highest margins per unit by far.

That shareholder value comes right out of the pocket of the new Porsche buyer. 997TTs now sell at auction for 70-75K. Half price in a couple years is a lot of depreciation for an esteemed marque.

I can almost hear Dr. Porsche rolling over in his grave.

[F350Lawman]

Yesterday I wrotes something that was both eloquent and brilliant regarding this topic....unfortunately when I hit send on my "Smartphone" it was lost forever.

Oh, well, you'll just have to trust me on this one

[icemann427]

You are too funny, Lawman!

That's why I have learned to go up to Edit and hit Copy before I try to send anything at length...Just in case it disappears, I can quickly paste what I wrote and try it, again.

[F350Lawman]

Yeah Icemann, I usually do copy it before I hit save..but not his time. A few years ago ago I was a frequent poster on the Ford diesel truck forum (thus my F350Lawman moniker) and we use to have some LENGTHY and sometimes heated political discussion. Nothing was worse than losing those hour long typed and proofread posts! The Porsche forums are so tame by comparison it's refreshing. I use to logoff totally spent from the Ford forum. Who would have thought the deep thinkers drive diesel pickups

Anyway , for me what was hard to take was the 997TT losing to the 1/2 price competition on the TRACK I could really care less about 0-60 or 1/4 mile times, that's always been more of an American muscle car specialty to me.

[JV911SYDNEY]

Originally Posted by jurhip

I don't think this is worth arguing about, but the main difference is buyers have changed. For $80K+ how many people want to explain why there car doesn't come with carpet, good sound insulation, etc. How many people really want that in a modern street car? 5-10%? If so, buy an Elise or build a Super 7.

The new cars are faster, while being quieter and more luxurious. For 95% of all consumers, this is better. The remainder 5% have old cars to choose from.

well said!

ultimately porsche are building what consumers are demanding. if the weren't they wouldnt be in business! "people" want comfortable cars with all the mod cons & safety equipment, the penalty of which is weight but the reality of it is that less than 10% of new prosches will ever see track time so weight is a non-issue

every morning i see dozens of porsches being driven by people on their war to work...thats right daily drivers. i'm sure these people are happy are appreciative of the comfort and mod cons

yet these same cars are still blisteringly quick and would spank just about anything else on the track

for those who want something track-oriented, as dewolf said, if you havent, go out and drive a GT3. It truly is awesome and the older cars feel like dinosaurs in comparison. Dont get me wrong, i love a good dinosaur but the GT3 is in another dimension. The handling, the sound, the power, the stopping power are awe-inspiring

for the record, the Gt-R is FUGLY but amazing value for money. Someone here mentioned that 99% of porsche buyers would not have considered the Gt-R and i'd agree...different target audience.

Originally Posted by DDDD

Assuming you have a paltry 25-30 dealerships in all of Australia.

11 actually

[Reaper930]

Originally Posted by JV911SYDNEY

for the record, the Gt-R is FUGLY

Haha, I dunno why this is so funny but I can hardly breathe! Good call!