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930 Help

Hi

I just bought a 1987 930 Coupe with 9,600 original miles, and I have a few questions.

The first one Im having a lot of trouble starting the car, sometimes when it is cold I have to remove the fuel pump relay that is on the front hood, this way it will sometimes start then I put back on the relay so it idles normally, but when the car gets hot, it becomes impossible to start it even with removing the relay it will start and die instantly, then a lot of fuel smell starts and it is impossible to get it running.
Also when driving it misfires, and does not run smoothly when the turbo kicks in a lot of black smoke comes out of the exhaust and it doesnt have the normal power, it feels slow.

Another question I have, what is the indicator by the side of the turbo pressure indicator that has some green and red lights and makes an alarm sound?

Thanks for your help
Old 04-05-2008, 10:16 PM
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resident samsquamch
 
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Hi and WELCOME!

With 9,600 "original miles", I guess you were never meant to even start it, let alone drive it!!! Not your doing, I know, it just peaves me to no end that these machines gather dust rather then being used!!!!! I mean for fuchs sake what do these people do, sit around and choke their chickens while staring at their pristine, unused car?

Keep in mind there are two fuel pumps and thus two fuel pump relays in the luggage compartment. The first two round relays closest to the windshield (both *SHOULD BE* red) are the fuel pump relays. There is also a fuel pump fuse on this same panel that has been known to cause trouble if it's not seated tightly between the two contacts. In addition, the wiring above and below this fuse can become brittle and even a little overheated...check it! You should be able to identify it using your fuse panel cover diagram...might also check the owner's manual. I will also look for a picture.

Bare in mind, the factory starting circuit for these engines, calls for the fuel pumps NOT to run unless the car is running...they don't normally come on with the just the ignition switched over. More on this later. So unless the wiring has been tampered with, the noise you might be hearing (like a whinning noise) is probably the CDI box.

Some other areas that can cause fuel pump probelms: in the engine compartment on the driver's side there is another fuse panel...hidden behind a black plastic cover, held in place with a wing nut. Under this panel there should be a yellow rectangular relay. This is the overboost relay. Often times these yellow relays are replaced with a standard red or black round relay. At any rate, check to be sure it's seated and that the contacts are clean. The overboost switch/sensor itself (found on the BOV/diverter valve housing) also needs to be properly grounded...I'll look for a picture.

Having said all of this, with 9,600 miles, I'm afraid that your other fuel related components could be suspect: WUR, fuel head, injectors, filter, lines, the gas itself...blah, blah, yada, yada.

As for this other device with the lights and the alarm...that sounds after market! Please post a picture for us.

Please tell us more about the car...
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back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 04-06-2008, 04:16 AM
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Also, by now, it's very possble that your spark plugs are fouled...
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 04-06-2008, 04:23 AM
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Thanks very much for your help, the car has very low mileage, because it was brought new into Mexico and could never be legalized, so the owner was not able to use it, until around 4 years ago a person bought the car from him, when it had around 4,000 miles and got it running but always with this problem Im having.

The first 2 round relays that you tell me are the fuel pump relays are Black not Red, should this be a problem?
Also I think that when I turn the ingnition switch on without starting the car, the fuel pumps begin to work, because when I remove this relay the 2nd one, I hear the sound of what seems to be a pump quitting, so maybe this is also a problem.

The thing with the alarm, doesn,t seem aftermarket to me, it is inside the RPM gauge to the left of the boost indicator, when I open the ignition switch it makes a sound and it has a line of little lights, from Red to Green, it makes the noise when I start it but after a few seconds it stops, and sometimes when driving it makes this alarm noise.

Thanks again
Old 04-06-2008, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGC930 View Post
Thanks very much for your help, the car has very low mileage, because it was brought new into Mexico and could never be legalized, so the owner was not able to use it, until around 4 years ago a person bought the car from him, when it had around 4,000 miles and got it running but always with this problem Im having.

The first 2 round relays that you tell me are the fuel pump relays are Black not Red, should this be a problem?
Also I think that when I turn the ingnition switch on without starting the car, the fuel pumps begin to work, because when I remove this relay the 2nd one, I hear the sound of what seems to be a pump quitting, so maybe this is also a problem.

The thing with the alarm, doesn,t seem aftermarket to me, it is inside the RPM gauge to the left of the boost indicator, when I open the ignition switch it makes a sound and it has a line of little lights, from Red to Green, it makes the noise when I start it but after a few seconds it stops, and sometimes when driving it makes this alarm noise.

Thanks again
Please shoot a pic. Sound like AFR or Radar.
__________________
---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 04-06-2008, 11:30 AM
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It would be a good idea to check out the fuel system starting with the fuel pick up in the tank.
I spent a few months in Mexico some years ago and it's a very beautiful country, but you can't always be sure of the gas you get.

Back when I was there, there were 2 grades of fuel, regular leaded which was questionable, and "magnasyn" which is the super unleaded and seemed to be good stuff.
"Pemex" or Petrolmexico, was the only oil company in Mexico and the only fuel sold.
I don't know about that now.

anyway, I would flush out the tank with new gas, check the fuel pumps, replace the fuel filter, and check out all the pressures in the fuel injection system.

With such low mileage, good chance it's in fine shape mechanically and will run great once it's sorted out.
Old 04-06-2008, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les_garten View Post
Please shoot a pic. Sound like AFR or Radar.
Here are some pictures, of the alarm thing, and also of the relay panel in the front hood maybe someone can spot a wrong relay or something.

Old 04-06-2008, 12:57 PM
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Hi,
Ok, I'll bite, what does it do when you are running down the road. If you floor the car, does it scroll through the lights? Or does it not do anything except at certain times. Basically does it act like it is measuring mixture or acts like a radar detector? I think it is AFR. And that is not stock by the way. You could also track the wires down and see where it goes to, like radar sensor, O2 sensor or MAYBE manifold vaccum and that it measures boost also. Those are the most likely options.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 04-06-2008, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les_garten View Post
Hi,
Ok, I'll bite, what does it do when you are running down the road. If you floor the car, does it scroll through the lights? Or does it not do anything except at certain times. Basically does it act like it is measuring mixture or acts like a radar detector? I think it is AFR. And that is not stock by the way. You could also track the wires down and see where it goes to, like radar sensor, O2 sensor or MAYBE manifold vaccum and that it measures boost also. Those are the most likely options.
When I first start the car, all the lights come on and it makes a noise for about 5 seconds, then if I floor the car it wont do anything, it just sometimes starts lighting up and makes this alarm noise.
By the way what do you mean by AFR?

Another question, my car has 3 small toggle switches under the dash, the first one to the left is the sunroof switch, but it also has one just by the side of this ones and one to the right of the steering wheel, but they dont seem to do anything if I move them, are this original switches?

Thanks
Old 04-06-2008, 01:09 PM
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Hi,
AFR, air fuel ratio. So, if you know what a boost gauge does, see if it correlates to boost, or is a radar detector or if it senses Air fuel ratio. Or track the wires down. It has to sense something. Or drive it and see if you think it senses:

Radar
Boost
AFR

I only have one toggle switch. It switches L/R Mirrors for adjustment.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 04-06-2008, 01:27 PM
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Starting from the orange dot (closest to the windshield)
red- fuel pump 1
red- fuel pump 2
nothing- inflatable doll output (optional) maybe that upshift light boost alarm
black-fog lights
black- twin horn something
black- blower fan
red- air conditioning

Last edited by martinb930; 04-06-2008 at 03:20 PM..
Old 04-06-2008, 03:17 PM
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I had awful hard/cold start problems too... it took forever to figure it out, but thanks to the guys here I got some good advise... this part may solve your problem... a bit pricey considering the component size ($120.00) and a little hard to get to; but, solved all my starting problems (Thanks to the brain...equality)


930-66 part "93061711800" for the 930.68 hard/cold start relay switch

Good luck and welcome
Old 04-06-2008, 03:31 PM
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Just for reference:
My dash...stock with the exception of the boost gauge and steering wheel:

Luggage compartment fuse panel...note the after market fuse holder (thick yellow wire) used to replace the troublesome fuel pump fuse:

Engine caompartment fuse panel...note the yellow relay:


I have little doubt that a full CIS tune-up and fuel pressure check would be in order for your engine. There is lot's of info regaring this...the searth function will be your friend as you sort this thing out.
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back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 04-06-2008, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sand_man View Post
Just for reference:


I have little doubt that a full CIS tune-up and fuel pressure check would be in order for your engine. There is lot's of info regaring this...the searth function will be your friend as you sort this thing out.
Thanks a lot for your help, so my relay setup is wrong? is there a difference between the red and the black relays? should I change this?

Thanks
Old 04-06-2008, 04:07 PM
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In a pinch the black ones will work, but I *THINK* the red ones have an additional diode in them that is a bit more friendly for the electrical system in this application.
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 04-06-2008, 04:09 PM
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Hi,
I have a Euro 930 and don't have any red relays FWIW. To the original poster. You probably have all kinds of issues related to the car not being driven. It would behoove you to have it gone over by a good Porsche mechanic to put it at a good baseline to start with.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 04-06-2008, 04:21 PM
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Could it be the same problem that keeps the car from starting, that makes the car not run smoothly,? when you floor it it has some kind of misfiring and it has a failure also when the turbo kicks in.
Old 04-06-2008, 06:26 PM
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Don't forget to buy the oem german relays NOT the ones from China they seem to have issues... just my experience.
Old 04-06-2008, 06:48 PM
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Thanks for all your input, I will be sending the car tomorrow to a mechanic that has a lot of Porsche experience, I will keep you posted on to what was the problem.
Old 04-06-2008, 07:05 PM
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At this point, with a car possessing such low mileage, I think the best money you will spend is in taking it to a COMPETENT Posche specialist, familiar with these old air-coolers and their CIS K-Jetronic fuel systems. Have them check your cold, warm, and full throttle enrichment control pressures. In addition, have your system pressure, fuel injectors, and fuel pump delivery rates checked. Of course if you have the CIS test gauges and test specs from the workshop manual, you can perform these tests yourself. However if you find a shop that you trust, you might be able to save some headaches until you become more familiar with this car.
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 04-06-2008, 07:31 PM
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