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Doug Siegel
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bloomington, IN
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Amount of boost retard

Anyone know how many degrees of boost retard the LATE 80's 930 get? The dizzy on the early 80's is different.

This question is really part of the MSD 6462 thread. It would be helpful to know the answer so we may learn how to set up the 6BTM (boost timing master) ignition.

Thanks.
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88' blk/blk 930: Haltech EFI, Twin Plug, Pauter Rods, Nascar Bearings, custom crank work, dowel pinned case, ported manifold and heads, Kokeln I/C, SC Cams, Turbonetics ball bearing 62-1, BB headers, RARLYL8 Zork, additional 993 oil filter, plx/inyourface gage, RS style coilover, Fikse FM10-17 wheels, TIAL 46mm 1 bar. (where the heck did all my money go?)
Old 04-15-2008, 07:17 PM
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Im no expert, but I would figure out the max timing at fullboost you want to run and then set the retard from there. So if off boost she runs say 30 degrees (for example)and you want to run 20 (for example) degrees at 10 pounds of boost- you set the retard for 1 degree per pound of boost.
I used one when I went to tech school (UTI) and it was part of a turbo kit for a civic. Long and the short- for that instance we used 3 degrees per pound of boost because it was a relatively high compression motor.
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Old 04-16-2008, 08:53 PM
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Doug Siegel
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 930gt-40r View Post
Im no expert, but I would figure out the max timing at fullboost you want to run and then set the retard from there. So if off boost she runs say 30 degrees (for example)and you want to run 20 (for example) degrees at 10 pounds of boost- you set the retard for 1 degree per pound of boost.
I used one when I went to tech school (UTI) and it was part of a turbo kit for a civic. Long and the short- for that instance we used 3 degrees per pound of boost because it was a relatively high compression motor.
Great! That clarifies much of the story. But...does anyone know where the timing should be on boost? Does the timing stay the same on boost from 3000-6500 rpm's?

THANKS!!!!
Doug
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88' blk/blk 930: Haltech EFI, Twin Plug, Pauter Rods, Nascar Bearings, custom crank work, dowel pinned case, ported manifold and heads, Kokeln I/C, SC Cams, Turbonetics ball bearing 62-1, BB headers, RARLYL8 Zork, additional 993 oil filter, plx/inyourface gage, RS style coilover, Fikse FM10-17 wheels, TIAL 46mm 1 bar. (where the heck did all my money go?)
Old 04-16-2008, 09:09 PM
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AFAIK they don't get any. Test yours with a timing light to see while you put pressure on the pods/capsules.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 04-27-2008, 02:48 PM
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Doug Siegel
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
AFAIK they don't get any. Test yours with a timing light to see while you put pressure on the pods/capsules.

Upon adding pressure, it looks like 11 degrees taken out.
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88' blk/blk 930: Haltech EFI, Twin Plug, Pauter Rods, Nascar Bearings, custom crank work, dowel pinned case, ported manifold and heads, Kokeln I/C, SC Cams, Turbonetics ball bearing 62-1, BB headers, RARLYL8 Zork, additional 993 oil filter, plx/inyourface gage, RS style coilover, Fikse FM10-17 wheels, TIAL 46mm 1 bar. (where the heck did all my money go?)
Old 04-28-2008, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsiegel360 View Post
Great! That clarifies much of the story. But...does anyone know where the timing should be on boost? Does the timing stay the same on boost from 3000-6500 rpm's?

THANKS!!!!
Doug
I have been asking this same question on other posts and have yet to get a real answer.
Good luck.
I know that boost retard on my 79 930 is about 10 degrees when I measured it last week. Why do you think the early 80's distributor is different in this regard?
I wish I had access to detailed info like this on these cars.
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 04-28-2008, 08:48 AM
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Doug Siegel
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredmeister View Post
I have been asking this same question on other posts and have yet to get a real answer.
Good luck.
I know that boost retard on my 79 930 is about 10 degrees when I measured it last week. Why do you think the early 80's distributor is different in this regard?
I wish I had access to detailed info like this on these cars.
A couple of guys with late 70's cars told me that they have no boost retard.....unless I understood them incorrectly. Seems like 10 or 11 degrees is the number.
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88' blk/blk 930: Haltech EFI, Twin Plug, Pauter Rods, Nascar Bearings, custom crank work, dowel pinned case, ported manifold and heads, Kokeln I/C, SC Cams, Turbonetics ball bearing 62-1, BB headers, RARLYL8 Zork, additional 993 oil filter, plx/inyourface gage, RS style coilover, Fikse FM10-17 wheels, TIAL 46mm 1 bar. (where the heck did all my money go?)
Old 04-28-2008, 05:08 PM
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Doug:

I found the amount of boost retard required varies with the amount of time you have been on the gas. Probably related to the temperature of the combustion chamber.

I turbocharged my Fiat sedan in 1980, and out of necessity, designed my own boost retard ignition. Marketed it as the TRAC II, before MSD had one. My day job I was a technician at Hughes Aircraft.

My turbo "system" was pretty crude, blow through the carb, no intercooler. The closer I got to work, the more boost retard I had to dial in keep it from knocking.

I started experimenting with knock sensors in 1982. Hughes "gave me the opportunity" to start my own business in '89. Individual cylinder knock control was released in '91.
Old 04-28-2008, 06:19 PM
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Acceleration Junkie
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John at J&S View Post
Doug:

I found the amount of boost retard required varies with the amount of time you have been on the gas. Probably related to the temperature of the combustion chamber.

I turbocharged my Fiat sedan in 1980, and out of necessity, designed my own boost retard ignition. Marketed it as the TRAC II, before MSD had one. My day job I was a technician at Hughes Aircraft.

My turbo "system" was pretty crude, blow through the carb, no intercooler. The closer I got to work, the more boost retard I had to dial in keep it from knocking.

I started experimenting with knock sensors in 1982. Hughes "gave me the opportunity" to start my own business in '89. Individual cylinder knock control was released in '91.
John:
Looking forward to the re-release of your single coil system.
Chris
Old 04-28-2008, 07:56 PM
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Macht Schnell
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
AFAIK they don't get any. Test yours with a timing light to see while you put pressure on the pods/capsules.

My Facto manuals show a Positive pressure retard of something like 6-8 degrees. The graphs are so convoluted and not updated that to interpret what the stock dist. is doing a like a scavenger hunt for information.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 04-28-2008, 08:35 PM
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I included a second coil driver for those with twin plugs. Also a fake magnetic pickup output to drive the old Bosch CDI.

Last edited by John at J&S; 04-29-2008 at 11:09 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 04-28-2008, 08:44 PM
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lnteresting stuff john, anyone who drives a turbo fiat is okay in my book amigo.l love Fiat`s.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:38 PM
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I've just gone through my factory manual which contains info on the G50/50 transmission which was only available on the '89 930 and cannot see any boost retard mentioned other than for the California/Japan cars but these only retarded around 5degrees.
Maybe someone who has the data could be kind enough to PM me please.

TIA.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-03-2008, 03:18 PM
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Macht Schnell
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
I've just gone through my factory manual which contains info on the G50/50 transmission which was only available on the '89 930 and cannot see any boost retard mentioned other than for the California/Japan cars but these only retarded around 5degrees.
Maybe someone who has the data could be kind enough to PM me please.

TIA.
Those were the graphs I was referring to. I have a Euro. It had 29 degrees, I never checked the retard on it but I assumed it would not have left 29 degrees at boost wither. Maybe some of the guys who run race gas can tell us how much advance they run on the track with "REAL" fuel.

Les
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 05-03-2008, 06:07 PM
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Les, how much boost retard per lb of boost have you got you aftermarket ecu giving you?
IOW, how many degrees per lb of boost?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-04-2008, 12:24 PM
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Macht Schnell
 
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Hello Nathan,
EFI/EMS don't really tune like that, you have a cell that lights up when the engine parameters hit that cell, and you change that individual cell for max TQ or whatever you are tuning to with respect to timing. I'm barely started into the tuning yet. No dyno time yet. I really feel there is not other way to set the timing except to use the dyno and look for max Power for each cell and then backout a few degrees for safety. Everything else is a guess. The Accel and MSD units should be setup on a Dyno IMHO. I'm attaching two timing maps and an AFR map. The conservative timing map is the one I am running while setting the fuel injection parameters to get my AFR's right.








On the left side is Absolute manifold pressure in kPa. 1 Bar is about 104 kPa. These Maps are by no means final. I'm merely posting them for discussions sake. Electromotive has it's issues, but the interface is awesome and intuitive to use.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT

Last edited by les_garten; 05-04-2008 at 05:58 PM..
Old 05-04-2008, 12:53 PM
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Les, I forgot you hadn't set your car on a dyno yet..

I see that you are only retarding 5degrees @ 1bar. If this is optimal then we could use the Cal/Jap pod on our dizzys or maybe we would need the whole dizzy.

I wonder if Stephen of IA, Geoffrey or DonE would be kind enough to share their experience here? Anyone else have a car that's been mapped properly and would take a look for us?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-04-2008, 01:17 PM
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Les:

I know Electromotive has knock detection. If you want individual cylinder control, the Vampire will work, but it needs access to the coil negatives.

MSD sells a coil spacer that lets you connect the Vampire to the coil negative, part number 8870 (requires one per coil).
Old 05-04-2008, 02:09 PM
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Hi,
Sorry made a goof on the Image post, fixed it. The first one is the one I am running at present.

Les
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 05-04-2008, 05:59 PM
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John, we wouldn't be able to trust it.

Les, so you are getting 10degrees of boost retard. If that is optimal then I am correct that the Cal/Jap dizzy is not of much use.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-07-2008, 11:22 AM
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