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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Sorry, I'm not much help with aftermarket EFI systems. Too many variations on that theme to keep up with.
You might PM Goran (BeepBeep) as he seems to do quite a bit of EFI tuning.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 05-20-2008, 08:04 AM
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Onboost, pm sent. The idle is about 1100 once warmed, and stays pretty steady. Boost seems to start about 2500, builds nicely from there.

GJF, thanks for the info. Dont even worry about offending me with, as while i have a 'moderate' knowledge base from working on my carrera turbo project, i will be the first to admit that i have a LOT of holes in my database. Any and all info you guys have, no matter how prosaic it may seem, is welcome at my end. As to the injectors, i appears to have 6 injectors from my inspection, i will double check. The turbo is a BB Garrett hybrid, K33 equivalent from the incomplete spec/build sheet that came with the car from the PO. I hope to get in touch with the builder through onboost to clear up some of the grey areas concerning this engine.
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'79 930/934 replica
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914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:55 AM
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Dear Jesus those are some nice numbers!
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:17 AM
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Hey man, sounds like fuel pressure is a great place to start. Even if the static pressure checks out, make sure it's not falling off under a load. I had that problem with my old boss's 930 after we built the motor. It sat up for 10 years or so while he aquired parts and funds to build a monster. Meanwhile, the fuel tank stopped up between the screw in filter in the bottom, and the otlet hose to the front pump. The pumps were noisy too though. If you have decent pressure under a load but still have a lean condition after checking the map sensor, you could always try an adjustable FPR to raise the pressure some. It might be a hack way of compensating for a poor tune but just might get the job done. Raising the pressure should have little effect on the idle and low throttle AFR but as the injector pulse widths get bigger, the higher pressure has more of an affect. did you get any tuning software along with whatever "bin file" (map) the ecu is running?? You could possiblyobtain the tuning software still but I don't know if you can retrieve the "bin file" from the tec unit to tune it. You may also consider checking the MAP sensor, as well as the plubming to it. Electromotive uses a GM style map sensor and apparently there are 3 different units. a 1,2, & 3 bar sensor. The 1 bar is for NA motors as it is concerning "absolute" pressure. The 2 bar is for 1 bar of boost and less, and the 3 bar is for up to 30psi of boost. You cannot swap a 2 bar map sensor for a 3 bar without major changes to the ecu file, as they all use a 0-5v signal range. You can check the map sensor voltage against the actual manifold pressure with some sort of datalog equipment. You can check the readings against the charts in the electromotive manuals which you can download from their website. If you can't find it let me know and I'll scan mine from my tec3 books. If you have a 2 bar sensor and your running more than 1 bar of boost the map sensor could be damaged. just some random pennies, hope it helps. take care
Old 05-20-2008, 09:25 AM
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RSRmike, your post was quite timely... the fuel pressure SUXXXXXXX. The static pressure is right at 37 and DROPS to around 35 with mild throttle according to shaun. The pumps do seem noisy, but no more so than on my 911. Should these be replaced before addressing the FRP? The problem we have with the Stock FPR is that it seems to lack adjustability. I have an extra Bell BEG 2025 RR FPR on hand from my turbo conversion - can i assume this would be more than adequate for the job?

Regarding the TEC, thanks for the info Mike. Unfortunately, didnt get any software, but your info is great. Will share this with Shaun

Reaper, thanks for the 411 on the 944 turbo TEC 1 guru... have sent him an email

Thanks for everyone on the board's help on this! With all your help, this thing should start cranking out some serious number soon, or at least safer ones.
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:00 AM
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lol you sound like me when you say suuxxxxxx. Fuel pressure sounds funky. I'm thinking you may have a delivery problem vs a regulator problem right off hand. It's hard to say w/o actually seeing what it's doing. I'm not sure which FPR you have or what it's pressure should be. If it is a stock 3.2 carrera, that static reading may not be too far off. I can't remember. I would look into the pumps first though. If you have 2, one near the steering rack and one in front of the LR tire, then they are likely CIS 930 pumps. If so, first make sure they both run. If one dies on a cis 930 it will hardly run. In your case it may not be as dramatic as EFI doesn't require nearly as much volume. CIS is using a portion of the volume from the pumps to control the fuel mixture. It also operates at a much higher pressure. that also brings up another point, I've heard that concerning 930 CIS pumps, one is designed for more volume while the other is designed to raise the pressure. Usually, when one pump dies, the other gets very noisy as it strains to either push or pull fuel through a dead pump (dependent upon which one quit) Obviously, if it's one pump trouble it could be one of the relays or a wiring problem.(anything is possible on these old beasts) If both pumps run, but are noisy, I would look at the fuel filter(duh), but also check the supply to the first pump from the tank. The fuel tanks are neat but can have problems if gunk accumulates in the bottom. It may be easy to do a flow rate test. If you have 930 pumps they should pass a CIS flow test w/ flying colors. (most CIS pumps can double the minimum flow in the alloted time) I think it is 1100 cc in 30 seconds??? Not sure but someone knows or has the books. I can't remember. One thing for certain though, Porsche says to test the flow AFTER the injection system. I guess mainly so that not only will the pumps have to make the flow, they have to it under pressure which makes them work harder. 930 pumps would probably flow 1100 cc in 10-15 seconds at 37 psi... to be continued
Old 05-20-2008, 06:52 PM
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I though I lost the above post!!!

After a mild tantrum I try to retype everything above sorry for duplicate info...




Dude, that sucks. I wonder if you donít have a delivery problem rather than a fuel reglator problem. Itís hard to say without being there. I donít know which FPR you have but if itís a stock 3.2 carrera manifold and fuel rail, it may be a carrera FPR. If so, 37 psi may not be too far off. Not sure but it seems about right for the early motronic cars. Checking the part number and looking up the specs would confirm if it comes to that. Do you still have 2 pumps? One in near the front near the steering rack and one in front of the left rear tire? If so they are most likely CIS 930 pumps. I would first make sure they both run. If one pump quits on a 930 itíll barely run, but it may not be as sensitive in your case. CIS uses a portion of the volume and pressure created by the pumps to control the mixture. It also runs at much higher pressure. Your car would likely run better on one pump than a cis car. Make sure the front one is running for sure. If not, the rear pump can make enough noise for both of them so pull the metal skid plate and check it for power as well. They each have their own relay in the trunk. If they both run but are both noisy, they are most likely starved for fuel or are fighting a stopped up fuel filter.(not common given the size of the filter, provided itís a 930 filter) In that case itís probably a problem in the bottom of the tank. Either the screen that screws in is stopped up (common) or the orifice from the screen to the outlet of the tank that feeds the front pump is stopped up (not as common but possible). If so hopefully itís just crud and not rust. It may be easy to check the flow rate of the pumps as you would in a CIS 930. I think itís 1100cc in 30 seconds or so. Not too sure but someone out there knows. Itís important to check the flow on the return side as it flows back to the tank. This is so you are checking the flow under pressure which requires more effort from the pumps. At this point feel free to hum that bowie/queen song to yourself as it makes it more fun. If they fail to flow test, carefully remove the hose from the tank to the front pump and see how fuel flows from the tank. If it looks like it needs flomax, youíll need to drain the tank and remove the 22mm? allen plug in the bottom. This holds the screen that may be covered in crud or rust. Also be sure to clean the outlet of the tank w/ the hose off and the screen/plug out. You can easily remove the fuel sending unit to look at the inside of the tank if you think it might be rusty. You may want to get a new gasket if you do. If you wind up needing a fuel pump, you should consider going to a single pump designed for EFI, of course youíll have plumbing to consider

Last edited by rsrmike; 05-20-2008 at 07:51 PM..
Old 05-20-2008, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
Brian, the cams are 934 or 934 grind. I have been trying to get back in touch with Tony Miller, the guy from Whittier, CA who built the engine, but he seems to have gone MIA, or his shop number is changed.

Will be testing the fuel pressure sometime this am. Clewett guys said should see about 40. Does this sound about right, sensei Brian?
I would think if they are 934 CAMS, that would explain the HP/TQ disparity. Also explain the idle. What RPM does it idle at? I'll bet after you saw the afr's you broke out in a cold sweat remembering every time you pushed the loud pedal?

GOT ZORK!!
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by GJF View Post
juicersr

It would be good just to inventory the car so you know exactly what it has so you will know what exactly it is capable of. I would hop it has a 044 or equivilent. Static should be 45 psi and should rise 1 psi per lbs. of boost, so if you are at 1 bar and the fuel pressure at 1 bar should be 60 psi. If the fuel pressure doesn't raise when you are on boost then the diaphram has a hole and the regulators are bad. You may already know this so please don't take offense as if I am insulting your intelligence. Ice helps to keep the IC cool as there is really no air forced into the engine bay since the car is stationary. I'd like to see a squirrel cage fan on top of the IC too. Do you know what the static compression of the motor? I would suspect it to be well into the 8's as it is making alot of torque before the powerband. When the fuel is sorted out it definetly will make 600+HP. It looks to have a Turbonetics T series turbo which the T series are 500HP to start to up over 1000HP. Does it have 6 injectors or is it 12 stagged injectors?
I have an Aeromotive Regulator and this is how mine is set.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 05-20-2008, 07:52 PM
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Justin,
What rpm did the run end at? If around 4k then hp/tq makes sense. Crazy #'s and it's not even at full potential!

It's a good thing to back down from a run on a dyno. I would ditch the FPR and replace it with an AFPR such as an Aeromotive brand (not sure what type of fuel line fittings you have on now). Plus I'd replace the fuel pump(s). You don't know how old they are plus it may not be a bad idea to have the fuel injectors cleaned and flow balanced by someone like RC. As for the old Tec ECU is it possible to add AFC (piggy back adjustable fuel controller) if necessary instead of upgrading to newer Tec versions? Just trying to help.

Mike
Old 05-20-2008, 07:55 PM
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I'm not sure about the FPR you mention. Is like an FMU? where it raises the pressure more than 1:1? I don't think I would try that w/ tec unless you have too. It would have to be one *****ty tune for that to work. you may consider a modified Bosch unit that you can adjust. I've seen those in numerous places. they have a bolt w/a jam nut that changes the spring tension on the diaphram but are still 1:1 more or less I think. good luck
Old 05-20-2008, 08:01 PM
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Yes, use AFPR that has 1:1 rising rate. It's only the FP you affect. If I'm wrong about using 1:1 for 930's using EFI then may I stand corrected!
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
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Justin,
What rpm did the run end at? If around 4k then hp/tq makes sense. Crazy #'s and it's not even at full potential!

It's a good thing to back down from a run on a dyno. I would ditch the FPR and replace it with an AFPR such as an Aeromotive brand (not sure what type of fuel line fittings you have on now). Plus I'd replace the fuel pump(s). You don't know how old they are plus it may not be a bad idea to have the fuel injectors cleaned and flow balanced by someone like RC. As for the old Tec ECU is it possible to add AFC (piggy back adjustable fuel controller) if necessary instead of upgrading to newer Tec versions? Just trying to help.

Mike
Last time I was at the tuner, even the Chebby and Ford Guys had Tons of respect for the Bosch Fuel Pumps. I honestly don't remeber all the fitting hardware for my Rails and what not. But I know the guy who knows this stuff forwards and reverse and has great prices to boot. Albert at Goingsuperfast.com. Tell him what you want to do, and he'll jet if off to you perfectly. I'm sure all his fittings are Chinese Ripoffs, but they all look just like Aeroquip or Russell's on my car. Dirt cheap, worked great. He KNOWS all these fittings and the issues to work around a conversion to braided lines and an Aeromotive FPR. He also can help you out with an EFI conversion to a new ECU. It sounds like you will need to can yours and get one you can tune.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:37 PM
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Hi guys, thanks once again for all the input. just getting home after long day. RSR, first order of biz will be to establish the number and integrity of the fuel pumps and outflow. Is there a simpler way to check for outflow crud other than draining the tank? Do most EFI builders go to one pump, or are two still needed as in CIS? I agree with u Mike D that it might just be a good idea to replace the pump. Would you recommend pulling all the injectors at this point, or only after we have gone over other stuff?

As to the FPR, the Bell 2025, used in conjunction with the stock unit, was my plan http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages/products_FPR.html as my understanding is that it was designed for this application. However, is something like Aeromotive the way to go in this appy?

We ended the runs about 4k as that was when things were getting unsafe. I had two conversations today, one with 'Chris' at 944enhancement.com (thanks Reaper) who said the Tec 1 will work ok, but diff to tune and might take a crap any time, and Rich at Clewett, who said the TecGT is the way to go. Interestingly enough, he knows the engine builder personally, and said that he was always a big fan of the Tec1 systems, and was able to make them work quite well on his engines. Will try and make the most of this system before changing too many variable at once.

I will run all of these post past my tuner guy, and we'll decide in what order and with what to proceed.

What direction/ or order of trouble shooting would most of you guys go in at this point? Thanks
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:30 PM
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Sorry Mike D, I was referring to Juice about his bell Reg. I'm not real quote savvy and we were posting at the same time...

Juice, the easiest way to check flow is unhook the return line on the engine going back to the tank AFTER the fuel pressure regulator. Use some kind of beaker that will hold at least 1000-1500cc of gasoline. You'll have to find a way to turn on your fuel pumps if they don't just run w/ the key. The tec unit most likely turns them on if the installer was as good as clewett says. You may just have to jumper both relays or find the trigger wire on the tec unit and ground it to turn them on. You want to measure the flow after the fuel rails so the pumps have to provide pressure and flow. Plus it includes everything, including the filter, in the loop. You should get at least 1000cc from a 930 fuel system at 37 psi in 15 seconds I would think. Others feel free to chime in here

If they both run but you fail the flow test, then I would start looking at the feed to the front pump from the tank. It's not that hard. The front pump should be right by the steering rack. you don't have to drain the entire tank just yet, just inhook the hose from the tank to make sure you get good steady flow from the tank. pinch the hose while you unhook it then let it flow into a bucket for at least 5-10 seconds and observe the stream. If it's weak, then you need to drain the entire tank and remove that 22mm plug in the bottom and start cleaning... Your smart to not start redoing your whole fuel system or engine management just yet, you may need a new fuel tank worse than anything...
Old 05-21-2008, 06:05 AM
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Justin,
Regarding pulling the injectors it depends how old they are and how long the car has been sitting between the runs. I don't think often enough since it appears the previous owner has lots of cars (from what you said?) and one of the owner was "afraid" of driving it?
Also, I don't think you would want to have two FPR's. Again, I don't know enough about 930's but do know about turbo's in general.
If it were me I would replace the FPR and fuel pumps then take it back on a dyno to check for AFR. Regarding injectors, if one were bad then I think you would have a hole in the piston by now. IMO, it would be safe to have the injectors cleaned and balanced expecially with your highly modded engine.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:18 AM
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Mike, thanks for the info. We are going to do just that today, start with flow from the pump and tank. If we do replace the pump, which Bosch unit is needed? Also, which Aeromotive FPR do you guys recommend?
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:48 AM
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Good luck, What kinda fuel system plumbing do you have? Is it steel braided hose w/ an fittings? I'm guessing you may have a stock carrera FPR. If so, there are some neat modified units that have a billet top on them w/ an adjustment screw. I've never personally installed one but I've seen them on a lot of cars and it's a drop-in replacement vs a bunch of fittings to deal with. Seems like an easy way to go. Don't forget about the MAP sensor and the hose going to it. A small crack in the hose would give a lean condition under boost... Clewett can probably give you better info on checking the voltage signal from the MAP if your fuel system turns out ok.
Old 05-21-2008, 07:13 AM
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Fuel delivery volume is a combination of fuel pressure and injector throughput. Injector throughput is determined by their sizing and amount of time that the nozzle is open. What size injectors (normally measure in lbs / hr.) do you have? Maybe the injectors cannot sustain the necessary loads?

Seems to me that every fuel injection brain must have some ability to tune or fine tune, but that if the injectors are tapped out at their capacity that this might be the issue.

What duty cycle are the injectors running above 3500 rpm and under load? You can measure duty cycle with most multimeters.

I'm pretty sure the factory FPRs are set around 37psi. The fact that yours is not maintaining this under load is also a concern.

Like MikeD said, I don't think you want to run two FPRs.

Doug
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Old 05-21-2008, 10:08 AM
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Looks like only one fuel pump, in the usual position from the front tank. It is fairly noisy and looks like it hasnt been changed since the car left the factory, or a least in the last several years. Will the stock Bosch pump for the 79 930 sold by our host be adequate as a replacement?
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80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
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D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 05-21-2008, 12:00 PM
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