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"I am the liquor..."
 
sand_man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cooterville, Carolina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
Looks like only one fuel pump, in the usual position from the front tank. It is fairly noisy and looks like it hasnt been changed since the car left the factory, or a least in the last several years. Will the stock Bosch pump for the 79 930 sold by our host be adequate as a replacement?
Hey Justin, as promised here is the link that we discussed:
http://www.boschfuelpumps.com/
I'm not sure if you'll find the exact factory fuel pump from them, but certainly worth a look. I know that the "044" is a popular choice, FWIW.
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-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 05-21-2008, 12:51 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #41 (permalink)
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Thanks Jeff. The "044" is running pressures considerably higher than stock, around 72.5 PSI. Is this ok for our application and the TEC efi?
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 05-21-2008, 02:02 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
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Stock CIS pumps are tailored for CIS: 7 bar system pressure. While two 930 CIS pumps will probably work fine on EFI car, I suggest using ordinary EFI pump of suitable size.

FPR works by attaining constant pressure across injector. So it will lower the fuel pressure is there is vacuum in plenum and raise it if there is a boost pressure on the other side.

First of all, make sure fuel lines aren't gummed up with deposits. Then change fuel filter and check fuel pressure again. If it still cannot hold pressure on throttle, change pump. Bosch 040 pumps are good and reliable.

Check pressure with new pump. Is still not OK, change FPR. Use ordinary 1:1 FPR. Raising rate FPR are only band-aid.

Once your fuel pressure is OK, do AFR run again. If everything is OK then you are square. If not, you might need TEC software and check duty ratio on injectors.

But I'm pretty sure filter or pump is main issue here.
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Thank you for your time,
Old 05-21-2008, 02:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #43 (permalink)
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Wow, Goran, thanks for weighing in... that just cleared up a lot of 'what to do and in what order' questions i had. The fuel pump sound and looks like crap, so went ahead and ordered a Bosche 044 from the site Jeff recommended. New filter too. It really does look like the pump may be the issue, as the static and dynamic pressure readings were $hite. From what i know, the stock FPR are ok and pretty robust, so hoping that the pump resolves this fuel issue and can move on. Wish to thank the hell out of this board for all the help!!!!! If we were at a bar, would buy a couple of rounds for you guys!!!!!!
__________________
'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 05-21-2008, 03:59 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beepbeep View Post
Stock CIS pumps are tailored for CIS: 7 bar system pressure. While two 930 CIS pumps will probably work fine on EFI car, I suggest using ordinary EFI pump of suitable size.

FPR works by attaining constant pressure across injector. So it will lower the fuel pressure is there is vacuum in plenum and raise it if there is a boost pressure on the other side.

First of all, make sure fuel lines aren't gummed up with deposits. Then change fuel filter and check fuel pressure again. If it still cannot hold pressure on throttle, change pump. Bosch 040 pumps are good and reliable.

Check pressure with new pump. Is still not OK, change FPR. Use ordinary 1:1 FPR. Raising rate FPR are only band-aid.

Once your fuel pressure is OK, do AFR run again. If everything is OK then you are square. If not, you might need TEC software and check duty ratio on injectors.

But I'm pretty sure filter or pump is main issue here.
Hi Juice,
I would agree with what the RoadRunner here said with one exception. Don't "assume" it was setup correctly. I would check up a "Major" tuneup, like plugs, wire checks, distributer cap, rotor, valve clearance, fuel filters, accumulator, etc. you need a baseline to establish where you are at from the get go. Then don't "assume" it was tuned properly in relation to the efi. I would get your injectors cleaned and flow checked also. Since you are in the "blind" here, assume everything is "Fraq'd" up till it is confirmed. Fuel and ignition delivery issues can ruin your day real fast!

Les
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 05-21-2008, 04:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #45 (permalink)
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For your info, I am running stock CIS pumps and fuel filter, stock 3.2 fuel rails and FPR on an EFI conversion producing 525 rwhp with no fueling issues. Some guys are up to 600 rwhp on this fuel system set up, so don't go spend money on fancy pumps and FPR's just yet. Follow GJF and Goran's advice on how to diagnose this, one step at a time.

Unfortunately, the TEC1 is ancient stuff and not very reliable - I think someone mentioned in an earlier post, they "got it to work". Well put. I switched from a TEC3 to a LINK - night and day difference in control, consistency, reliability, etc. Anyway, take your time, one step at a time - that's a good tuner.

Oh, and I can't believe you drove cross country with those AFR's, hours on end, and not melt the motor. I bet there's no carbon to found anywhere in that motor....
Old 05-21-2008, 06:15 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #46 (permalink)
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Yeah Don, ignorance is bliss, and i dodged an expensive bullet there. But I really feel that it was only in the last part of the trip that the fuel system began to get out of wack, or i would never have made it as it the whole way with things as they are now. Nevertheless, i am now paranoid and going over everything assiduously to make sure it's running safely.

I hear what you are saying, and my tuner and i, using this board's input, are methodically going through the basic stuff to get her running right. I learned long ago the hard way that guessing what the problems are is incredibly expensive, and leads to even more headaches.

We replaced all the plugs, two of which were fouled, and two showing signs of lean, replaced one ignition wire and are starting on the foundations of the fuel system. (BTW - Can anyone tell me how to adjust the valves on a crankfire system without markings for TDC, as i've only done it on distributored 911's using the rotor markings???)

I'm not ready to give Tec1 the boot quite yet. If i do, the Tec-gt is probably where i'm headed, but the LINK system warrants intriguing. Should get the fuel pump over the weekend, and will give more updates as things progress.
__________________
'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 05-21-2008, 08:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #47 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
(BTW - Can anyone tell me how to adjust the valves on a crankfire system without markings for TDC, as i've only done it on distributored 911's using the rotor markings???)
Are you running the black anodized Clewett crank pulley? If so, it should have a "Z1" mark which will be TDC for either cylinder 1, or cylinder 4 when lined up with the fan housing mark. You may need a mirror to see the marks...mine are engraved into the pulley, but I have since painted a more visible mark with - GULP - nail polish!

When I adjust my valves, I usually remove my driver side covers, and when I turn the pulley until I'm on "Z1", I check to see if my cylinder 1 valves are "loose" (valve springs not compressed). If so, I start the adjustment process. If not, I go another 360 on the pulley and check again. If 1 is tight, then four is loose and vice/verse.

From the "Z1" mark you should also be able to find the other marks that are 120 degrees apart. I do my valves one side at a time. So after I adjust number 1, I turn the pulley 240 degrees, and adjust number 2, and then another 240 degrees and adjust number 3. Then I move to the other side. Obviously if your preference is to move back and forth, you would only be turning 120 degrees.

Thread from when I did the "backside" mthod:
backside valve adjustment - my thoughts
__________________
-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)

Last edited by sand_man; 05-22-2008 at 05:41 AM..
Old 05-22-2008, 03:44 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #48 (permalink)
"I am the liquor..."
 
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FYI - the Clewett crank pulley. Note the white markings, that are also engraved:
__________________
-jeff
back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 05-22-2008, 05:37 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
Yeah Don, ignorance is bliss, and i dodged an expensive bullet there. But I really feel that it was only in the last part of the trip that the fuel system began to get out of wack, or i would never have made it as it the whole way with things as they are now. Nevertheless, i am now paranoid and going over everything assiduously to make sure it's running safely.

I hear what you are saying, and my tuner and i, using this board's input, are methodically going through the basic stuff to get her running right. I learned long ago the hard way that guessing what the problems are is incredibly expensive, and leads to even more headaches.

We replaced all the plugs, two of which were fouled, and two showing signs of lean, replaced one ignition wire and are starting on the foundations of the fuel system. (BTW - Can anyone tell me how to adjust the valves on a crankfire system without markings for TDC, as i've only done it on distributored 911's using the rotor markings???)

I'm not ready to give Tec1 the boot quite yet. If i do, the Tec-gt is probably where i'm headed, but the LINK system warrants intriguing. Should get the fuel pump over the weekend, and will give more updates as things progress.
Hi,
Using where the rotor points seems terribly inaccurate. I wold never adjust valves from that. The base circles on these cames are pretty wide and flat and may not make that much difference, I just think it would be sloppy as far as knowing TDC. Your crank pulley should be notched every 120 degrees.

Les
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 05-22-2008, 09:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #50 (permalink)
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