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930/4 Dyno day... the good, the bad and the ugly

Well. finally got the 930/4 into the dyno today. Have been having such a blast driving her, that was almost afraid of what i would find

Well, the good is that right out the box, without any tuning, she is making 354whp and 516lb/ft.

The bad new is that the AFR's suck above 35-4000. We pretty much had half runs to get to 354 as the AFR's were getting above 15. The video shows how lean she got above 3500

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZnaO5pRCAg

The ugly is that after a couple of call to Electromotive and Clewett, it doesn't look there is much programability in the Tec-1, but Shawn (my dyno/tuning guru here in Wilmington,) suspects the Fuel pressure may be off, or the FPR not working correctly. We didn't have the correct fitting for the fuel pressure test tap, so we will check it tomorrow. The FPR looks stock. Shawn was stunned to get even those numbers, with the AFR's the way they were, and that there is a a LOT more in this engine based on his experience. He wants to get the AFR's locked solidly between 12-13 all the way up. What do you guys think?
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'79 930/934 replica
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Old 05-19-2008, 04:46 PM
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What do I think??

I think the car looks awesome and the numbers are great.

Unfortunately, I have no advice to the AFR's except I need to get a gage so I know what the hell is going on under my tail as well.

Best of luck in the search. Please keep us posted. I watched the thread of your trip. Glad everything went well on the way home.

Bryan
87-930
Old 05-19-2008, 05:13 PM
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Well...... It is Electromotive.............. (sorry)

It probably has stock Carrera FPR. They are very reliable units.

It definetly is lean popping on the top end.

You definetly need to get a static fuel pressure reading. After that you will know if it is the regulators or the pump/s.

What pump/s are on the car?

You will want atleast 12.5 on boost all the way up. High 11's to be safe on pump.
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:11 PM
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wow that's alot of torque
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:30 PM
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Those AFRs are frightening. Glad you made it home intact.
I don't understand the huge torque vs HP discrepancy. Generally these motors are pretty square above 350hp. By that I mean torque = hp. For example, a typical Euro 930 will make 300hp and 315 ft/lb torque. 354hp with 516 ft/lb of torque are numbers you would expect out of a turbo diesel.
Could simply be the math. The torque maxed out at 3500rpm but the HP was not yet realized.
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Those AFRs are frightening. Glad you made it home intact.
I don't understand the huge torque vs HP discrepancy. Generally these motors are pretty square above 350hp. By that I mean torque = hp. For example, a typical Euro 930 will make 300hp and 315 ft/lb torque. 354hp with 516 ft/lb of torque are numbers you would expect out of a turbo diesel.
Could simply be the math. The torque maxed out at 3500rpm but the HP was not yet realized.
I was kinda confused by this too...
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Old 05-19-2008, 07:03 PM
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Yeah Brian, frightening is truly the word for it. I kept the boost low pretty much the whole trip, and had a few runs up that seemed ok, but didnt really get into it as i was afraid of the unknown. As to the hp vs torque, me too, but Shaun didn't seemed to be scratching his head. We are going to start with fuel pressures, then the FPR, and go from there. The guy at Clewett seemed slightly more knowledgable than the guys from Electromotive themselves... has anyone with Tec systems found this as well? Will keep you posted as things progress.
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
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Old 05-19-2008, 07:33 PM
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I figured it out. Work the math backwards:

HP = (Tq)(rpm)/5252
354h = (516)x/5252
x = (354)(5252)/516
x = 3600rpm

Therefore if you were to sustain 500 ft/lb of torque at 6500rpm:

HP = (500tq)(6500rpm)/5252
HP = 618
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 05-19-2008, 07:59 PM
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Hmmmm. Thanks Brian. I wish this thing were making Carrera GT numbers, but something is amiss. We'll see what transpires as we work out the AFR numbers.
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 05-19-2008, 08:16 PM
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GOD! I love that machine.. it sounds SO NICE!
Old 05-19-2008, 10:03 PM
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Yeah, I love it too! And regardless of what the numbers work out to be, the thing is a monster...
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:12 AM
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Clewett is great to deal with. Being that I'm only on the Electromotive XDi twin plug module (no EFI), I can't be of much help. I think user Brian Keith Smith was running Electromotive EFI engine management on his track 930...not sure what verision it is, though.
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:51 AM
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GJF - Not sure what pumps am using... will crawl underneath and see.

BTW, what static fuel pressures should we be seeing?
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 05-20-2008, 04:55 AM
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That HP number at 6500rpm is purely theoretical. Most torque curves drop off after a mid-range peak. A drop of 75 ft/lb Tq @ 6500rpm translates to 526hp.
That is a big number but very realistic given the torque figure.

Those cams sound awesome! What are they?
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:27 AM
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The TEC 1 is pretty old and probably limited to what you can do. You might want to look at the TEC 3 version. That's what BKS is running and he's got about 450 RWHP with great A/F numbers.
Old 05-20-2008, 05:57 AM
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I'd have a fan or a bag of ice on the intercooler to keep it cool during runs ( I didn't see one ).

What cams are you runnng that make it sound so "lopey".

You should be making a lot more than 354 rwhp, but I'm not sure where to start. Fuel pressure as suggested maybe. Make sure eveything is new or good such as plugs, wires, etc.
Old 05-20-2008, 06:05 AM
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Brian, the cams are 934 or 934 grind. I have been trying to get back in touch with Tony Miller, the guy from Whittier, CA who built the engine, but he seems to have gone MIA, or his shop number is changed.

Will be testing the fuel pressure sometime this am. Clewett guys said should see about 40. Does this sound about right, sensei Brian?
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 05-20-2008, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A930Rocket View Post
I'd have a fan or a bag of ice on the intercooler to keep it cool during runs ( I didn't see one ).
Hmmm. I saw the ice thing on Eddie Bello's runs. Once we get the fueling issue sorted, will definately try it.
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 05-20-2008, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
Brian, the cams are 934 or 934 grind. I have been trying to get back in touch with Tony Miller, the guy from Whittier, CA who built the engine, but he seems to have gone MIA, or his shop number is changed.

Will be testing the fuel pressure sometime this am. Clewett guys said should see about 40. Does this sound about right, sensei Brian?
juicersr,

Tony Miller and his shop are both still around, he's got a lot going on right now from what I understand. Not sure about the phone #s though, as I have a buddy that spoke to him last week. If you need to reach him I'll see if I can get you guys in touch. Let me know.

The Clewett guys are very knowledgeable about all of the Electromotive systems... It almost seems as though Electromotive just manufactures the stuff, supports the equipment in terms of warranty etc.. but relies on the distributors for a particular market to provide Q&A, customer support, & tuning etc..

As 930Rocket stated, the Tech l is pretty old, and not very advanced in scalability.

Sounds like you've got a lot more in there though..

Curious, at what rpm does your car idle, and where do you feel the cams come-on in proportion to where your boost starts if you can even tell?
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:53 AM
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juicersr

It would be good just to inventory the car so you know exactly what it has so you will know what exactly it is capable of. I would hop it has a 044 or equivilent. Static should be 45 psi and should rise 1 psi per lbs. of boost, so if you are at 1 bar and the fuel pressure at 1 bar should be 60 psi. If the fuel pressure doesn't raise when you are on boost then the diaphram has a hole and the regulators are bad. You may already know this so please don't take offense as if I am insulting your intelligence. Ice helps to keep the IC cool as there is really no air forced into the engine bay since the car is stationary. I'd like to see a squirrel cage fan on top of the IC too. Do you know what the static compression of the motor? I would suspect it to be well into the 8's as it is making alot of torque before the powerband. When the fuel is sorted out it definetly will make 600+HP. It looks to have a Turbonetics T series turbo which the T series are 500HP to start to up over 1000HP. Does it have 6 injectors or is it 12 stagged injectors?
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Twin Garrett's, Big Valve, Xtreme Cylinder Heads, JB Racing cylinders and machine work, custom JE pistons, GT2 EVO cams, GT3 oil pump, modified 3.2L intake, 80mm TB, custom Intercooler, equal length headers, DFI, KEP Stage 2 custom twin disc, G50 custom gear set, LSD, Tilton trans pump, Fluidyne cooler
Old 05-20-2008, 06:59 AM
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