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Cynical Misanthrope
 
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"Heh, EFI is kinda a DIY project on steroids... "

Good, bring it. I did an off-the-shelf Stg3 on my Audi S4 a few years back, and was bored and frustrated by the instant but shallow reward, and the limitations of OEM Motronic. The car was bloody-fast (60-90mph in 3.1sec), but for all the available hardware like cams and hybrid turbos there was no option other than stand-alone to make it work.
If my car is apart for a year trying to get it running EFI, then that's a year of learning and having an active project to occupy my manic head. I drove myself crazy over the weekend pulling out my WUR, banging on it, putting it back in, drive, watch wideband, "Nope, that didn't do it", pull the WUR, hammer some more. I felt like a neanderthal.
My friends ask me "Won't you ever be able to enjoy a car without tearing it apart?" "Nope"
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 05-27-2008, 10:26 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFM744 View Post
"Heh, EFI is kinda a DIY project on steroids... "

Good, bring it. I did an off-the-shelf Stg3 on my Audi S4 a few years back, and was bored and frustrated by the instant but shallow reward, and the limitations of OEM Motronic. The car was bloody-fast (60-90mph in 3.1sec), but for all the available hardware like cams and hybrid turbos there was no option other than stand-alone to make it work.
If my car is apart for a year trying to get it running EFI, then that's a year of learning and having an active project to occupy my manic head. I drove myself crazy over the weekend pulling out my WUR, banging on it, putting it back in, drive, watch wideband, "Nope, that didn't do it", pull the WUR, hammer some more. I felt like a neanderthal.
My friends ask me "Won't you ever be able to enjoy a car without tearing it apart?" "Nope"
Heh, well that ain't how you tune the EFI for sure. You make a change and you hear the pitch of the engine change immediately. If you are used to adjusting your WUR like you are doing or doing plug cuts and jet changes, tuning EFI is just plain FUN, comparatively speaking...
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT

Last edited by les_garten; 05-27-2008 at 11:26 PM..
Old 05-27-2008, 11:16 PM
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Cynical Misanthrope
 
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I knew before seeing the timing graphs when I had the S4 tuning right. The exhaust note took on a different, more guttoral note, and it would just demolish 3rd gear pulls. Biggest problem on that car was the Det sensors would sense (something) and the ECU would dump 20deg of timing. You'd do the same pull on 100oct and get the same result, i.e. the det sensors were way hyperactive and the ECU overreactive. A later code on the same hardware uncorked 50hp. I'd just rather take that into my own hands and be able to actually learn how to tune rather than just stand in line to write a big check and be told to be happy with it again.
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 05-28-2008, 01:10 AM
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Ok is there a system ( say a Bosch) that's being used in a production auto that is available and someone's doing aftermarket software that can be tuned?
Yes, lots. There's a guy in Sydney that's hacked the newer GM CPUs and can f with anything you like. There's a supercharged 911 in town running a GM ECU that guy hacked.
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Old 05-28-2008, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJL View Post
Yes, lots. There's a guy in Sydney that's hacked the newer GM CPUs and can f with anything you like. There's a supercharged 911 in town running a GM ECU that guy hacked.
That's great but do they offer software so WE ( or someone else) can tune them ?
I love the idea of a GM ECU
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Old 05-28-2008, 07:00 AM
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Cynical Misanthrope
 
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"If you are used to adjusting your WUR like you are doing or doing plug cuts and jet changes, tuning EFI is just plain FUN, comparatively speaking..."

Naw, I raced 250GP bikes for years. Plug-chops and jetting changes were a breeze on that bike (Honda RS250R), I could check my weather station at 1st call, pull the tank, carbs, swap mains, reinstall and fire up the bike before 2nd call, then put on my gloves and helmet for the sighting lap. Right now it takes me ~10min to get my WUR out. On the C2 you have to lift the airbox, as well as pull the IC to get it out.
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 05-28-2008, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFM744 View Post
"If you are used to adjusting your WUR like you are doing or doing plug cuts and jet changes, tuning EFI is just plain FUN, comparatively speaking..."

Naw, I raced 250GP bikes for years. Plug-chops and jetting changes were a breeze on that bike (Honda RS250R), I could check my weather station at 1st call, pull the tank, carbs, swap mains, reinstall and fire up the bike before 2nd call, then put on my gloves and helmet for the sighting lap. Right now it takes me ~10min to get my WUR out. On the C2 you have to lift the airbox, as well as pull the IC to get it out.

Howz all that compare to driving along watching a Laptop and when your RPM hits the spot you want to tune, you enter a few keystrokes and see the change immediately!! Of course you miss all that intimate face-time with your WUR!!
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 05-28-2008, 01:57 PM
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Cynical Misanthrope
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by les_garten View Post
Howz all that compare to driving along watching a Laptop and when your RPM hits the spot you want to tune, you enter a few keystrokes and see the change immediately!! Of course you miss all that intimate face-time with your WUR!!
Intimate face-time!!! Like the gas spraying out the return fitting...
Really it's maddening with such a deterrent to quick changes. You can't just take the car to some quiet backroad for some methodical trial/error tuning. Every WUR change requires driving home, pull WUR while engine cools, then try again. On the Audi I could log a pull, add a degree of timing or fuel, log again, compare all the relevant vitals (absolute timing and correction factor, knock sensor activity, AFR, EGTs, and of course the all-important 60-90mph time) and know immediately whether I'm going in the right direction. Unfortunately since this was on cracked Motronic-7 there were limits, and anything that changed the VE of the motor was outside them.
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 05-28-2008, 02:23 PM
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How much?, pm me your asking price, thanks.

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Originally Posted by JohnJL View Post
I have a fully built Megasquirt II with twin edis ignition units and their wiring harnesses, twin EDIS coil packs, just needs a trigger wheel on your crank and a sensor and its ready to go. STIM and all the extra bits and case, cooling fan. I had a great time building it up but wanted something with a full-service team behind it. My kits for sale if someone wants it. Otherwise I'll play with it on the 2.7.

Its s good setup with an active community.
Old 05-28-2008, 03:25 PM
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I am running the DTA Pro8. It is fine but I think I would try a different system just to learn something new. I would really look into an Accel product next time along with others.
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Old 05-29-2008, 04:33 AM
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I am running the DTA Pro8. It is fine but I think I would try a different system just to learn something new. I would really look into an Accel product next time along with others.
Hi,
Interesting about the DTA. The Electromotive interface is excellent in my limited experience, it;s just the company and the hardware which have been a nightmare. I have an EFI tuning book that displays the Electromotive Interface on the cover cause it's so purdy.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 05-29-2008, 11:54 AM
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I believe all of these systems, from Accel to Zytek, from Megasquirt to Motec have quirks and gotchas. From monitoring the banter over the last 5 years, I've concluded that they all can work fine on a 930 if they're set up right and tuned properly. Some provide more flexibility or features that may be important to the user. The only system I'd personally shy away from is the Electromotive, both the early systems like the TEC1 (because it's so coarse, and I had one once) and the TEC3r (because of anecdotal reports of problems from DonE and others). But even that may not be fair to Electromotive or its users; many of their systems have been used with success.

It's our human nature to recommend that others follow the path we have chosen. ("I have a DTA. I'm happy with it. Buy it.") But that's not very objective. It validates our own decisions, and perhaps, we hope, makes our work product more valuable. Some people have a more direct, vested interest in promoting a product for their direct personal gain (dealers or reps). There's nothing wrong with that either; but it's helpful to understand everyone's motivation.

I think it keeps coming back to this, which has come out several times now:

The tuner is the key, not the system. I believe that even the smartest DIY guy who's not very experienced at tuning will spend huge amounts of time getting their car tuned right, and will suffer lots of frustration (and risk serious consequences) in the process. They may also spend lots of money on inefficient use of dyno time, such that it would be cheaper just to hire it done in the first place. And without dyno tuning, I wouldn't trust that the tune will be optimized for power or safety, and as such, I would be hesitant to run the car hard (as on the track) for fear of damaging the engine.

Trouble is, most tuners are also dealers, so it's hard to get a purely objective viewpoint on any management system. But maybe it doesn't really matter...

Rob
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob 930 View Post
The tuner is the key, not the system. I believe that even the smartest DIY guy who's not very experienced at tuning will spend huge amounts of time getting their car tuned right, and will suffer lots of frustration (and risk serious consequences) in the process. They may also spend lots of money on inefficient use of dyno time, such that it would be cheaper just to hire it done in the first place. And without dyno tuning, I wouldn't trust that the tune will be optimized for power or safety, and as such, I would be hesitant to run the car hard (as on the track) for fear of damaging the engine.
I also agree tuner is probably one of the most important factor here.

Speaking from my own experience - I had no experience, nor expertise, in tuning car prior to my own conversion. There was LOTS of pain & it took me a LONG time, but I was into DIY and wanted to learn how it works, so it was a GREAT experience. Risk can be managed IMHO - we all have a sense of what timing needs to be. Using a WBO2, I made sure I started rich then tune it down. The engine is more robust than I thought. So it CAN be done if you are that tuner

I had been using her on track for >1 year and have NOT gone on dyno yet. (I'm putting her on dyno next week ) I am sure I have left HP on the table, but she did not blow up and I didn't feel I need to turn on rest of the features to gain something yet. Talking to a few tuners / mechanics locally - they also agree that tuning on dyno to start is good, but you'll still want to data log some real driving then do fine tuning.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:33 PM
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Haltech E6K.

Pretty affordable, really easy to tune, LOTS of availble info out there on it.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:41 PM
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DTA here, next project will have Sakura or Microtech just to try something less expensive and as good
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Old 05-31-2008, 06:02 AM
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Had tec2 having wayne in south fl installing a DTA system.. This is my web page you can see I do alot work myself but when it came to tuning a ECU no brainer to let the tuners take over..P.S thats not me in the pic.
http://www.kmmotorsport.com/kmmotorsport/965_Project.html
Old 05-31-2008, 06:37 AM
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DTA P8, I would use this system again or the next model up. It has more features than I needed but also covered everything I did need. My car is a street car and has pretty much been street tuned. Having help from a few others on this board and locally was essential. As far as tuning goes you have to understand that even after a dyno tune there are conditions that still have to be worked out, these are typically startup and warmup in all different outside temperatures. Or startup after a 10minute heat soak when you stop off at a store. Driving in 90 degree weather and driving in 40 degree weather is a huge swing. A system that has good logging capabilities and a wide band sensor is essential to handle the fine tuning needed under all these different conditions.
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Old 05-31-2008, 08:37 AM
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Jaun, the microtech is great, good easy to use software too!!

Cheers
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Old 05-31-2008, 05:35 PM
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Spectre Performance eMS-Pro. Based on MS but with tons of options, boost control, launch control, etc....

HUGE YES! Car has never run soooo nice and I would buy it again without question!

How do you really like this system? My gripe with it is that while it's got alot of features packed into a pretty case, it's still based off old MS version 1 main ware chips and bit rates and costs twice that of a pre-build MS2 PCB3 with all the options loaded into it.

All the options in the Spectre are available for MS2 plus the nice MS2 option for barometric correction factor. I guess you just pay to have them all loaded in at once. Alot of those feature I wouldn't use on a 911 anyway like nitrous control or two-step launch control. Just still boggles my mind why they go to those lengths to do all that and only use the MS1 hardware when MS2 was available.

At least from your post it sounds like you car is running good which is what really counts in the end
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Old 05-31-2008, 10:43 PM
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The ECM is in fact based on MS1 but the programming is all MS2 extra code. Im not sure what all of that means to be honest but this ECM is setting records at the drag strip and doing just as well in road race, and off road applications.

I really havent got into the finer points of how it works but like you say at the end of the day, the bottom line is I have a reliable ECM that makes all the power and more than I can use and the cars runs beautiful and technology wise is leaps and bounds ahead of the old CIS system. I really liked the looks of the unit too as it is sitting out in the open behind my seats under the roll cage along side my MSD DIS4 Plus ingnition controller. PURDY!!!

If you call DIY Autotune and talk to Matt over there he could tell you all the specifics of the ECM. Im sorry I cant answer your questions better.
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Old 06-01-2008, 01:52 PM
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