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Blitzkrieg
 
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Ceramic coating opinions???????

I just bought a used set of B&B headers, they are quite discolored. Has anyone ceramic coated their stainless headers? Does it stay looking nice long? Is it worth the money or should I just polish them up again? Thanx, Jamie
Old 05-28-2008, 07:54 AM
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It is worth the money to do so if you have a good set of headers to start with. B&B's have a good tendancy to crack alot, ofthen inside the heat exhanger boxes if you have a heat-option set there. I'd inspect the weld areas for cracks and risers before sending them off to be coated. Any problems you'd want to attend to before the ceramic goes on as it goes inside and outside.

Jethot make a nice, effective, and cheap coating option that's very easy to maintain(clean). Swaintech's coating is the best as far as performance and thermal retention goes but get's dirty easily and is a pain to keep clean. Most give ait a light coat of some kind of high temp spray paint to make it easier to keep clean as the coating itself is very rough(gritty) Jethots coating is smooth.
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Old 05-28-2008, 10:09 AM
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Get them coated on the outside only. Do not allow any coating to get inside.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-28-2008, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
Get them coated on the outside only. Do not allow any coating to get inside.

Why? If the header is properly prepped the is no reason not to. The ceramic will not separate from the header material to cause turbine damage if that's what you're concerned with. If it does it's due to an improperly prepped primary, impact damaged from outside(IE hitting road debris), or from a catastrophic failure inside the motor causing impact damage(IE valve/pistons pieces).

Thousands apon thousands of hard race miles on dozens of hand built headers here from my shop that are jet hot or swain coated and not one failure
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Old 05-28-2008, 05:41 PM
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while I normally do not chime in on posts arguing for this or against that I really have had it with "do this or do that" from people who are freaking repeating internet forum drivel... I'm in the process of coating a set of inconel headers once my secondary pipe gets back from burns stainless and I am going to ceramic coat the inside of the headers and plate the outside. why, because my own research has shown me this will be reliable and insualte and protect the headers from the caustic environment they are in. DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and talk with those who actually are doing things and have real world experience vs those that babel forum tips...
Old 05-28-2008, 06:40 PM
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Is it worth the risk? Is there any performance benefit?

I wanted to get my headers coated locally to me here in UK. Nobody could do them when I told them how hot they were going to get due to the turbo.
I should've got them done before I had them sent from the USA...
I don't have much faith in getting things done properly by companies here...
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 05-29-2008, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
Is it worth the risk? Is there any performance benefit?

I wanted to get my headers coated locally to me here in UK. Nobody could do them when I told them how hot they were going to get due to the turbo.
I should've got them done before I had them sent from the USA...
I don't have much faith in getting things done properly by companies here...

Performance benefit....certainly. Turbo spool time is typically decreased by about 50-100rpm or so pending type of turbo and header setup. Biggest gain I ever recorded was a tad over 200rpm sooner, allthough it wasn't a p-car. The biggest benefit is the lower compartment temps as a majority of the heat is retain in the exhaust stream. Header longevity is increased dramatically as well as it keeps a good portion of the heat out of the actual header base material, reducing heat cycle fatigue. It's not going to keep the header lasting forever, but it does extend the typical life of you average race car exhaust header.

As far as exhaust temp being an cause for failure don't think about it. Jethots coatings are rated for well over 2200F and Swains White lightning which is pure ceramic is hgiher than that. The higest recorded EGT I've had here was on a big turbo rotary Rx7 witha 20b triple rotor motor at over 1900F Your average turbo flat siz might see 1600 on a good tune. Nothing to worry about.

The biggest thing is that the part is properly prepped(media blasted and bone dry) and that the company doing the coating knows what the hell they're ctually doing. Typically if I'm building a car for a customer and it needs to look pretty it's JetHot. If it's a balls out race car, Swain is the way I go.
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Old 05-29-2008, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jly535 View Post
I just bought a used set of B&B headers, they are quite discolored. Has anyone ceramic coated their stainless headers? Does it stay looking nice long? Is it worth the money or should I just polish them up again? Thanx, Jamie
You nust have won that auction that closed a few days ago on ebay. I was watching it also. They kept giving me strange measurements so I felt they would be small for my motor. They looked in nice condition though.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 05-29-2008, 10:59 AM
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Blitzkrieg
 
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Originally Posted by les_garten View Post
You nust have won that auction that closed a few days ago on ebay. I was watching it also. They kept giving me strange measurements so I felt they would be small for my motor. They looked in nice condition though.
Yup, to good of a deal to pass up. What measurements were you asking about? I know my 77 930 has the wide spacing bores, so I assume they will fit. The ad stated that they fit 77-89, not sure why they wouldn't fit 75, 76 also if they fit 77. I have a feeling that he meant 78-89, but if they don't fit then I will pass them on to someone here.
Old 05-29-2008, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jly535 View Post
Yup, to good of a deal to pass up. What measurements were you asking about? I know my 77 930 has the wide spacing bores, so I assume they will fit. The ad stated that they fit 77-89, not sure why they wouldn't fit 75, 76 also if they fit 77. I have a feeling that he meant 78-89, but if they don't fit then I will pass them on to someone here.

I was looking for ID of the primaries.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 05-30-2008, 08:03 AM
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Adam, would you also have the flanges coated where they meet the gaskets?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-01-2008, 12:59 AM
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Old 06-01-2008, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
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Adam, would you also have the flanges coated where they meet the gaskets?

Yes it's typically fine. After I get a manifold back from coating I'll put it on the surfacer to machine the gasket surfaces perfectly flat again and then what I do is take a large flat file to flatten out the surfaces to ensure a smooth sealing edge. Pending on how tight the bolt hole tolerances are you sometimes need to ream out the coating from the holes a bit(like the 4 you bolt the turbo to the header with) as well to make life easier slipping the bolts in.

You can usually specify where the parts are NOT to be coated but it typically increases the price, so it's just as well to coat the whole thing and then take 5 minutes flattening it all out afterwards. The coating has little effect on sealing, good or bad. The only one I really flatten out is Swaintechs white lightning as it's really rough(like 40grit sandpaper) and would probably cause a leak if you didn't use a copper spray sealant on the gaskets, or if you didn't flatten it out prior to installation.

The only thing I'd watch for is if you coat something like turbine housing that has very tight tolerances around the center section, but then most places that do this know that and are pretty good about where not to put any coating that would otherwise need removal for fitment later on.
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Old 06-01-2008, 06:38 AM
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"Header longevity is increased dramatically..."
Thanks Adam for chiming in.
If you coat the inside of the pipes - you greatly extend the life of your headers; coat the outside only and you use up the steel much faster than no coating at all.
Old 06-02-2008, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-man930 View Post
If you coat the inside of the pipes - you greatly extend the life of your headers; coat the outside only and you use up the steel much faster than no coating at all.
Care to expand on why outside coating only causes the steel to be "used up" faster?

Thanks.
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Coming SOME DAY...1991 3.3 turbo, Tahoe Blue Metallic with some mods
Old 06-02-2008, 05:44 AM
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Depends on the coating.
If you have them cad plated you are fine - you are protecting the outside from corrosion while allowing the heat to "escape." If you ceramic coat the outside you are insulating the pipes from the wrong side trapping a good portion of the heat in the metal. So you end up with the metal taking more of the abuse then non-coated. Regarless if the headers are made of 302, 321, or Inconel 625, there is a fatigue life associated with heat cycles, metal deteriation from the caustic gases flowing through the tubes, etc... I plan on ceramic coating the inside of mine (mine are three peice design like Don E with V-band joints so they are much easier to clean and setup to properly apply the ceramic coating) and plating the outside to let the metal radiate whatever heat it can out of the metal portion of the pipes...
Old 06-02-2008, 08:09 AM
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Has anyone actually been able to cite ceramic coating on the inside of a header as the cause of turbo FOD or is everyone just thinking doomsday?
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Coming SOME DAY...1991 3.3 turbo, Tahoe Blue Metallic with some mods
Old 06-02-2008, 09:48 AM
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Thanks Adam.

40 grit? Yikes. How does that help the flow? Golf ball effect?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-02-2008, 12:46 PM
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Any info on the 9R6 motor?



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Old 06-02-2008, 02:54 PM
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Any info on the 9R6 motor?






That wrap on the 9R6 pipes is that UBER expensive gold foil. That stuff is amazing and works well but has a rediculous price tag. They use it as the stuff is super thin and actually weighs less than you typical layer of ceramic. Same stuff NASA uses to protect sensitive electronics from heat on their crap

Quote:
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Thanks Adam.

40 grit? Yikes. How does that help the flow? Golf ball effect?

Might have exaggerated that coarseness a bit but it's still rough non the less
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Old 06-02-2008, 05:18 PM
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