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my forrest fire 930 !

ok ... i have looked into this through archives but I cant find a solid answer. There is a lot of talk about 8mm ball-bearing ball not in the oil supply line also people have added oil restrictors to the supply line, though there is no way the ball is in any way restricting the oil flow to the turbo. When the car is running , this ball is irrelvant.

This problem is driving me crazy as that oil is pushing past the seals in the turbo and causing the worst smoke i have ever seen from any car. It is like that arcade game Spy Hunter where you are trying to get away from the gangster types and you have a smoke screen button. I am absolutely blinding everyone behind me. Anyways, I am sure it is either the seals in the turbo that are blown or the oil return pump is not functioning as it should.

I am leaning more towards the turbo return pump as the turbo is relatively new (less than 5k miles). My question is about the return pump. Do these fail? What parts are rebuildable? All I have found are the gaskets/seals but I dont see these as a major issue that would cause pump failure.

Any help is greatly appreciated as this is driving me crazy

thanks
Oskar
Old 06-08-2008, 04:02 AM
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Hi there! Here is a good way of testing your turbo scavenge pump:
930 Oil Drip Tank Fills When Engine Is Off -->Causes smoking
Just curious, what turbo are you running? Is it an original 3LDZ, a K27, a K27 variant, a Garrett of some sort, etc. Also, there aren't many parts to the scavenge pump. Other than a couple of o-ring/seals and paper gaskets, it's a very basic drive system off the cam.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the link I posted above assumes you have aftermarket headers, which usually require a different drip tank. If you are running a factory drip tank, this might be a little more difficult to test, but I'm sure someting could be cobbled togther. Also, on the factory drip tank, I think there is a vent that runs up to the factory air box, is this connected?
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back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
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Last edited by sand_man; 06-08-2008 at 05:15 AM..
Old 06-08-2008, 04:17 AM
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How much oil is in the system? Do you check the oil with the car at operating temps, on level ground, while the engine is idling?
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back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 06-08-2008, 04:22 AM
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did you add oil restrictors?
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1979 Porsche 930: 3.4L, SC cams, Twin plug, Leask WUR, Custom SSI turbo exhaust, Tial WG, K27HFS, and we can't forget the Zork (short lived depending on my homeowners assoc.)
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Old 06-08-2008, 06:14 PM
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I have not checked the flow with a cup as that diagram suggests. Right now it has the original oil return tank, I will have to figure a way to rig it up. The turbo is a k27 variant with only about 5k on it. I am pretty sure the pump is not keeping up with the flow from the feed. I dont know what would fail in the pump or maybe the pickup line.
Old 06-08-2008, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngM018 View Post
did you add oil restrictors?
I have not but the previous owner may have.
Old 06-08-2008, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSloVo View Post
I have not checked the flow with a cup as that diagram suggests.
Actually, my second question was regarding the overall oil level in your car. I was just curious where you keep your oil level and how you go about checking it. I'm not sure if this is your case, but often times newer owners keep the oil level totally full and don't check it properly, thus running too much oil. This can increase your chances of having oil smoke, especially on spirited drives with lots of cornering.

I tend to keep my level on the lower side - first mark on the dip stick, just above the red mark on the bottom of the level gauge. Checked with the car at operating temps, on level ground, while idling. YMMV!

I'm curious, and I don't know the answer to this, but once the turbo charger seals have been breached (by oil), if you think that's the case, will you be in need of another turbo rebuild?

One other thing to check, if you can get your intercooler out, is to look down into the turbo compressor housing and check to see if you have oil pooling in the housing. Also look for signs of your intercooler being overly saturated with oil: a thin oily film is acceptable, but oil running out of it would be a bad thing.
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back in the saddle: '95 993 - just another black C2
*SOLD*: '87 930 GP White - heroin would have been a cheaper addiction...
"Ladies and Gentlemen, from Boston Massachusetts, we are Morphine, at your service..." - Mark Sandman (RIP)
Old 06-09-2008, 06:00 AM
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I keep the oil level at the lower mark when warm and running. The problem is worse with the original oil return tank (I have the aftermarket header/tank as well). the original tank is twice the size and extends much futher past the inlet on the top. Going through a left handed turn the problem is much worse as I believe the oil in the (full) tank is pushed back up into the turbo. Plumes of smoke again.

There is oil in the intake not as bad as I would think. Mostly pooled at the transitions of the turbo to intercooler pipe.

I am looking into getting a restrictor to reduce the flow of oil to the turbo sine I think the return pump cant keep up.

Im not sure either about the seals in the turbo .. though they arent normal rubber/silicon type seals in there. I have rebuilt a few garret turbos myself.
Old 06-09-2008, 11:13 AM
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Do you have the stock ball and the stock banjo bolt above the ball (it has a small hole which restricts oil to the turbo).
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-10-2008, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSloVo View Post
ok ... i have looked into this through archives but I cant find a solid answer. There is a lot of talk about 8mm ball-bearing ball not in the oil supply line also people have added oil restrictors to the supply line, though there is no way the ball is in any way restricting the oil flow to the turbo. When the car is running , this ball is irrelvant.

This problem is driving me crazy as that oil is pushing past the seals in the turbo and causing the worst smoke i have ever seen from any car. It is like that arcade game Spy Hunter where you are trying to get away from the gangster types and you have a smoke screen button. I am absolutely blinding everyone behind me. Anyways, I am sure it is either the seals in the turbo that are blown or the oil return pump is not functioning as it should.

I am leaning more towards the turbo return pump as the turbo is relatively new (less than 5k miles). My question is about the return pump. Do these fail? What parts are rebuildable? All I have found are the gaskets/seals but I dont see these as a major issue that would cause pump failure.

Any help is greatly appreciated as this is driving me crazy

thanks
Oskar
Dude,
I left that Ball out and it immediately looked like I was fogging the ENTIRE freakin neighborhood for Mosquito's. The ball does not restrict pressure, it is a flow restrictor, and it is incredible how much oil will flow past your seals and flood your entire intake system without it in place. I left it out on a brand new HF2 and freak'd out. Put it in and problem was immediately gone. That ball is a goofy way of doing things, but it serves it's purpose. And it works when the pressure hits it and blows it up into the banjo and partially blocks the holes in the fitting thus restricting flow. The neighbors showed up in my garage to see what was on freakin' fire man!
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT

Last edited by les_garten; 06-10-2008 at 09:14 PM..
Old 06-10-2008, 09:07 PM
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Nuff said!
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-11-2008, 12:44 PM
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bearing ball

There is a ball there, when I took the motor out .. there was no ball, it has one now ... for the past 6 months. Still smokes like nothing I have ever seen.
Old 06-11-2008, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSloVo View Post
There is a ball there, when I took the motor out .. there was no ball, it has one now ... for the past 6 months. Still smokes like nothing I have ever seen.
Hi,
Are you sure it's the right ball? From what you said above, there was no ball and you obtained one somewhere? It sounds like we don't quite have the whole story here. Could you go over the timeline of how long you owned the car, when it started smoking, when you assessed the restrictor ball, etc. Come on, we want to hear the whole sordid story! Don't tease us!
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 06-11-2008, 02:51 PM
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OMG,I just wrote a huge long post but since it took so long to write I got logged out so my post was lost.

but anyways I will check the sizing of the ball and rewrite my description again
Old 06-11-2008, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSloVo View Post
OMG,I just wrote a huge long post but since it took so long to write I got logged out so my post was lost.

but anyways I will check the sizing of the ball and rewrite my description again
Rats! Next time that happens, hit back in your browser, you can copy and paste it into notepad and then repost it.
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 06-11-2008, 06:03 PM
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Do you have the stock banjo bolt?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-12-2008, 10:04 AM
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banjo

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
Do you have the stock banjo bolt?
with the grooves so oil can get around the bearing ball ?

yes.
Old 06-12-2008, 08:40 PM
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Yep, that's the one.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-14-2008, 12:56 AM
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I had a chance this past weekend to get in there and check the sizing on the bearing ball.

it is 9mm ..... still forrest fire.

I will check the flow by removing the return line as suggested.
Old 06-27-2008, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSloVo View Post
I had a chance this past weekend to get in there and check the sizing on the bearing ball.

it is 9mm ..... still forrest fire.

I will check the flow by removing the return line as suggested.
I'm not sure I followed this well or not. Did it run for a time with no ball in it? Maybe the seals were blown out and they aren't going to re-seat. Are you sure it's oil blowing past the Turbo seals and not elsewhere?
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 06-27-2008, 10:40 AM
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