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A fellow Pelacanite
 
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I know what you mean

I have a two port can/pod and blowing in to it does nothing...
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-23-2008, 12:07 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
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Hmm...it would be optimal to have a dizzy where vaccum advances the timing. In that case you can take the hose off the bell, adjust on-boost timing to whatever you feel comfortable with (depending on ambient temp, fuel quality, boost etc.)

My other (non-P) car has that solution. Vaccum advances the dizzy and vaccum line is taken off the tap that sits directly over the throttle butterfly. The trick part is that there is little advance at idle (as butterfly masks the tap so it sucks from both parts of the butterfly). As soon as you prod the gas, butterfly moves from the tap and hose is submited to vacuum, advancing the timing. When boost comes online advance is canceled and distributor bottoms out on whatever you adjusted it to.

It's also a safe should hose that controls dizzy rupture. Only thing that happends if vacuum disappears is that dizzy runs on max preset full-boost advance (which is typically less than low-load advance). The tap-on-butterfly trick is also neat as it allows engine to idle at low advance (giving stable idle and good emissions) but starts advancing as soon as you start driving.
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #62 (permalink)
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That sounds OK, but surely the timing would retard again while waiting for boost to build at WOT below an engine rpm that the turbo gives +ve pressure?

I like the safety aspect of that setup though.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-23-2008, 03:14 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #63 (permalink)
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Yup. Optimal mechanical dizzy would be both boost- and vaccum-sensitive. But it's mechanical tolerances would probably creep trough wear so it's probably safest just to install a programmable ignition module and map the advance vs. MAP curve any way you like it, leaving dizzy just for distribution purpose.

P.S.
Sometimes, even programmable ignition must be paired with some sort of mechanical advance if uzing mechanical dizzy. Attempt to run pre-programmed advance on locked distributor can result in spark walking out of rotor tolerances. Rotor can only distribute spark if spark is in the ballpark of curved piece of metal doing the actual distribution. So sometimes, you have to use mechanicals just to align the rotor good enough to do the actual distribution.


The cheapest way to solve Alan's is probably MSII and Ford EDIS module/coilpack. It costs peanuts and you can leave the fueling part unused until time is ripe to go full EFI. Also, expanding to twin-plug means just bying extra EDIS/coilpack combo.
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 356-930 View Post
The early 930's are simply dogs when not in boost. What does the turbocharger add? 100-HP? Pull 100Hp out of a normally aspirated engine with 7:1 compression and see how it performs under 3k-rpm.
I believe I read a that OEM 930 engine produces ground-scorching 120hp without the turbo. And that's probably at high revs as well. Around 3000 RPM, without boost? 60-70hp at most
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Old 06-23-2008, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beepbeep View Post
The cheapest way to solve Alan's is probably MSII and Ford EDIS module/coilpack. .
Goran - can you expand on this - MS11 & Ford EDIS.
I have adjusted my WUR warm pressure down another 5 psi (and leaned boost off a bit as it was getting richer too - low 11's). Will try tonight - but it definitely has helped.
Thanks
Alan
Old 06-23-2008, 04:50 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #66 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L View Post
Goran - can you expand on this - MS11 & Ford EDIS.

Thanks
Alan
MSII = Megasquirt = EFI "brain". It can control a Ford EDIS ignition system & give you total control over ignition timing over the entire RPM & MAP range.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:11 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #67 (permalink)
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http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-engine-management-system-wpcb3-unassembled-p-59.html

The EDIS is a coil pack.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-24-2008, 12:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #68 (permalink)
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Goran, you're expertise here is very helpful.

If anyone doesn't understand
Quote:
P.S.
Sometimes, even programmable ignition must be paired with some sort of mechanical advance if uzing mechanical dizzy. Attempt to run pre-programmed advance on locked distributor can result in spark walking out of rotor tolerances. Rotor can only distribute spark if spark is in the ballpark of curved piece of metal doing the actual distribution. So sometimes, you have to use mechanicals just to align the rotor good enough to do the actual distribution.
Then they need to have a look at a distributor of a 3.2 carrera. Basically it has weights and either a spring or springs in but no electronics at all. Pretty clever.


Goran, how does one trigger the MSD units we were discussing? Do you have to fit a trigger wheel to the crank?
Am I right in thinking that with a MSII you have no choice but to fit a trigger wheel to the crank?


TIA
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-24-2008, 01:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #69 (permalink)
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I've just been following your MS link - and it seems to rely on a crank trigger - but depicts it as the distributor . I get out of my depth at this point.
I must say - the info via this forum is INVALUABLE.
Did not try the new fuel adjustments last night. A blizzard swept up the country. Instead of working out in the cold garage, I sat by the fire. Call me a wimp.
Alan
Old 06-24-2008, 01:12 PM
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I have a slightly moded 930 and it starts the boost cycle at about 2500 to 2800 rpm. I have a 7200, headers, a B&B IC with a .95 boost. I also have a dual outlet muff. I was also wondering what effect adding an exhaust cutout just past the turbo would be on spool up? They have electrically operated ones now and my drivers side leg of my dual ourlet muff is about 4 inches below the turbo/muff leg. This would make it easy to dump the raw exhaust into the outlet tube with a cutout. Will this help?
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L View Post
I've just been following your MS link - and it seems to rely on a crank trigger - but depicts it as the distributor . I get out of my depth at this point.
Hello Alan.

You can run distibutorless ignition in two ways (actually three):

1. You use crank and cam position sensor and let EFI trigger each plug when it should..
2. You use crank sensor only and fire the plugs twice as often instead. Crank sensor doesn't know OD is in exchaust or compression phase, thus it needs to fire on every OD.
3. (This one is high-end) You use crank sensor only, fire plugs twice as often during cranking, let EFI detect ignition phase by ion-sensing and then kill unneeded phase.


MSII can be configured to use wastefire concept described above in case 1 to deliver completly distributorless ignition and fueling.

It can also be configured to work with ordinary dizzy, by recieving signal from distributor pickup and then triggering single coil.

So it's up to you.

Want to keep dizzy and coil? No problem, remove CDI box, hook the pickup into MSII, let it feed the coil and voilá, you got fully programmable ignition (and fueling, if you install injectors as well).

Want to go coilpack distributorless ignition? No problem, you remove dizzy, CDI and everything else that has with ignition to do. You let MSII feed 6-cylinder Ford EDIS wastefire coilpack.

Want distibutorless coilpack and twin plug? No problem. Buy extra Ford EDIS, connect module inputs in parallel and multiplex cables for wastefire twin-plug application.
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Old 06-27-2008, 11:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #72 (permalink)
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Thanks Goran - so the MS11 with its advance retard programme can be used in conjunction with regular distributor?
Alan
Old 06-28-2008, 02:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #73 (permalink)
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I think maybe now we are going off topic. I'm gonna start a new thread...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/416981-idiots-guide-installing-cheap-ems-such-msii-aka-ms2-megasquirt2.html#post4029081

Maybe this thread can continue with what Rudy just said about...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911rudy View Post
I have a slightly moded 930 and it starts the boost cycle at about 2500 to 2800 rpm. I have a 7200, headers, a B&B IC with a .95 boost. I also have a dual outlet muff. I was also wondering what effect adding an exhaust cutout just past the turbo would be on spool up? They have electrically operated ones now and my drivers side leg of my dual ourlet muff is about 4 inches below the turbo/muff leg. This would make it easy to dump the raw exhaust into the outlet tube with a cutout. Will this help?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 06-28-2008 at 04:39 AM..
Old 06-28-2008, 04:25 AM
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Rudy - it will help if you dump the exhause before full boost, during the spool up.

I have been developing a 930 active exhaust for over a year and have found it to be much more challenging than you would think it should be. An exhaust dump is not too difficult but the timing of the event to maximize performance advantages is a bit tricky. You have to consider A/F ratios and backpressure/spooling events as well as the same when the gate slams shut as you get off the gas.

If you use a fairly free flowing muffler to begin with these troubles are relieved somewhat.

What I am doing is going from a very quiet muffler to a straight pipe that opens at boost onset. This sudden dynamic change has to be balanced to retain smooth operation.
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Old 06-29-2008, 07:24 PM
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Well I finally found the root problem that has bedeviled this car from day one.
The piece in the distributor that responds to the vacuum pod was almost frozen up. I stripped the dizzy down last night - after playing with some timing scenarios in terms of retard/adv - hoping to fiddle some more advance in pre boost. This part did not seem to be behaving properly.
Once I pulled the core unit out of the dizzy that hooks up with the pod, I could barely turn it in my hands. I can suck on the pod now and watch it move.
My timing specs call for 26 deg BTDC with no vac. So, I was able to time this up for max advance OK, but the pre boost range of timing was non existent.
The car pulls as smooth as from 1000 rpm now.
Now I just have to get my WUR to behave. But I am quite sure this is the problem - the car is behaving sooo much better.
Alan
Old 08-01-2008, 05:16 PM
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Does your dizzy have two ports Alan?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 08-02-2008, 09:38 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #77 (permalink)
UNDER CONSTRUCTION!
 
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3300 R.P.M. turbo kicks in

turbo lag is just something we live with in these cars, around town for just short blast of fun our 3.0 carrera is allot more fun to drive has seat of the pants throttle response
when we take out both cars and leave a light the carrera jumps off the start" we are not dumping the clutch " just a normal take off then making a run for it the turbo then after loosing two car lengths quickly reels in the carrera after reaching 3300 rpm and takes its position in the front.

man i just love the turbo thing

ed
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Old 08-02-2008, 11:31 AM
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...Yeah, timing, SC/C2 cams and K27-7200 would certainly help. But may I suggest a simple change in driving style?

< 45 mph and you should be in 1st gear! (Give your poor, old dear a chance!)

My car used to be dead below 4000rpm - SC cams got it going by about 3000rpm. But there is the full-throttle-way-before-apex way that F1 drivers used to drive in the turbo days in anticipation of the turbo lag.

And if you're REALLY clever, you could try Left-Foot Braking, the way that old WRC Rally Drivers used to do.. But I'm not, only ends in disaster around the corners - I occasionally just do it in a straight line to prime the turbocharger in readiness for a gap in the on-coming traffic.

Last edited by tj930; 08-02-2008 at 03:30 PM.. Reason: typoZ
Old 08-02-2008, 03:29 PM
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My dizzy only has one port. I dont think it is the standard one for a type 68 motor.
But it has to be the cause of all my problems in lack of low end response. Beyond the vacuum range, the boost timing centrifugal bits take over. These bits always worked OK. Hence the vicious wallop when it hit boost -everything came right - fuel dump correcting leaness, plus boost timing. But below that nothing was happening.
Had another track/race day y/day. I bailed on the one last month because the problem was not sorted and too hard to drive.
The race day y/day started in the rain. The car was easier to drive in the wet than the dry race day 2 mths previous. I have full range throttle response, and never lost it once - even when wheel spinning in 2nd off the corners. It is a different car.
The timing was correct at low end at top end with the previous dizzy set up, but the fact I could barely turn the innards on the vac port has to be wrong.
All the low end hesitation is gone. I could tune some out by dumping more fuel in, down to 2000 rpm, but it still was wrong below that. It now pulls without hesitation from 1000 rpm.
I just have to get some precise fuel management going now. I was running it y/day with the WUR boost port disconnected (dumping too much fuel). My AFRs in this mode went from 13.5 at boost onset down to around mid 11's at top end. Weird - it was getting richer with more revs, instead of leaning. Can't work it out. But the bit prior to boost is a bit lean. It always was, but with the dizzy not working properly, the engine basically failed to work. With the dizzy freed up, it tolerates these lean AFRs much better.
I am ordering a digi WUR now I know my only remaining problem is precise fuel ratio control.
The car is fantastic to drive now, and wicked under boost. I was nailing the throttle about 1 sec before I needed full power, instead of counting to 5 and wondering if anything would happen. I could control the back end just balancing it on the throttle. Brilliant. It is much easier to drive now than I ever imagined it would be.
Now to improve suspension, tyres etc.
Regards
Alan
Old 08-03-2008, 02:41 PM
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