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EFI guys... What would you do in this situation?

Well, the saga continues. The honeymoon is over it seems, and the tuning reality is rearing its ugly head. As a followup to the prior post 930/4 Dyno day... the good, the bad and the ugly, fixed fuel pressure issues and are now running into tuning issues with the TEC1 system. Pretty much going nowhere fast, as calls to both Clewett engineering and Electromotive have been unproductive to say the least (no suprise to you guys i'm sure) My question is this.., if i go with say a Spectre or MS2, or whatever ECU, will i be able to keep any stuff from my present system (coil packs, crank trigger, etc) or will i have to ditch the entire system and start from scratch. My tuner is pretty savy with EFI tuning and installs in general, but is a little daunted by starting from ground zero with new system on this car. I have read just about every post here on EFI, and it seems that the Spectre, DTA or MS2 ECUs seem about equally good, but would one 'interface' with my existing system?. I am most familiar with MS, as i tuned my 911SC it, but this is a whole new level. What would you guys do in my position?
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 06-23-2008, 09:28 PM
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Ditch it!! Yes, I know it is easy to spend other's money.....


My microtech has proven cost effective, stable and easy to tune. See if there is a tuner in your area and go talk to them to see if it will fit your needs......

The software is very easy to use.

Cheers
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Old 06-23-2008, 09:44 PM
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If you have tuned your SC using MS, why not use it again here? What's the difference?

Of course I'm a little biased

I'm not familiar with the Tec1, but would think that most sensors (MAP, crank, MAT, ....) are re-usable. If Tec1 is not COP/sequential, then I suspect MS can also handle that.
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87 930 K27HFS/B&B/Twin-Plug... Megasquirted
Old 06-24-2008, 01:06 AM
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Are fuel pressure issues squared off 100%??

Is fuel pressure rock solid 3 bar + plenum? Is fuel pressure less than 3 bar @ vacuum and more than 3 bar at boost?

Once this is done you can concentrate on finding out why you are leaning out.

Do you have control over fuel maps? Can you post a screenshot of fueling map?

If it's leaning on the top it should be quite easy just to richen the cells in fuel map, as long as duty cycle isn't maxed out on injectors.
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Thank you for your time,
Old 06-24-2008, 02:32 AM
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The Spectre is based from the MS1 so I would consider that a backward step from the MSII.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-24-2008, 01:09 PM
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You would be smart to ask the mfg of the ECU you want. That way, you can be sure the components work, and you can have leverage in case something doesn't work right. For example, my car died on the way back from Road Atlanta a couple of weeks ago and the ECU showed a trigger 1 sensor failure. I pulled the sensor and the ECU, and sent it back to Performance Developments to be tested/fixed. Neil checked it in 24 hours and found nothing wrong, and returned it to me for the cost of shipping only. It turned out to be a broken crimp - my bad for not checking EVERYTHING. I still paid Neil for his time and I'm back on the road. But my point is that he helped me choose all the parts and helped me with the installation, and still helps me diagnose problems pretty quickly.

If you try to piece a system together, you could be chasing issues forever and not enjoy the car. Whatever system you choose, follow their recommendations on peripherals.
Old 06-24-2008, 05:44 PM
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Yes, but Neil is has beyond exceptional sevice.....

Good advice though, you need to source your ecu from someone who has great service.

Cheers
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997 S 4.0, Cayman S 3.8, Boxster 2.7, Boxster S race car, 996, 955 Cayenne TT, 958 Cayenne TT
Old 06-24-2008, 06:03 PM
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Thanks for the input guys. Seems that Electro REALLY doesnt give a crap about troubleshooting or helping you fix their old sytems... you call tech support, and they dodge questions and end up trying to upsell the new TEC3 or GT! I dont think the system is completely shot as it just got me 2500 miles! I see this as a challenge. Gonna dyno one more day, and try to get some parameters from the port, and only then if unsuccessful, will take the plunge on another system. Hell, Imagine auto's Stever Kasper's twin turbo 'Monster' in it's final 600 hp iteration ran great with the TEC1

Don, could you PM me the cost on the LINK system. Were you able to get a base system tailored for you by the guys a LINK, who were familiar with 930's? Having someone with such knowledge to guide me and my tuner through the initial setup would be great.

Goran, we have look at the Fuel pressure/ vacum/ boost correlation off the dyno, and seems ok. Will be back on the dyno tomorrow or day after to verify. Thanks
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 06-24-2008, 07:51 PM
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OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
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Why not go with the TEC 3? You are already there and couyld save a bundle. BKS uses it with out problems.
Old 06-28-2008, 11:03 AM
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Actually, i am leaning toward the TEC-GT system, as i have spoken with a couple of guys running it without problem. The Electromotive folks, after a slow start, have ended up beeing very helpful over the last week as we have tried every means to get the TEC1 accessed, and are going to give a generous trade-in allowance on the TEC1 if i decide to go with the TEC-GT. There are also a couple of local guys who are available for tuning the system as well. We'll see.
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 06-28-2008, 11:38 AM
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Why not talk to IA about setting the Tec-1 up since they seem to have experience with it?

'79 930/DP935
3.5 twin plug.
Old 06-28-2008, 11:59 AM
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Juicersr,

Follow Don's advice. Not only do you get the best customer service, Neil really knows Porsche engines. One of the top places to go. I think the Link system will be the system of choice once the G4 is out there and people see what it can do. I am sure others here will add to my recommendation of Neil @ Performance Developments.

Choose the best system, choose one that has the best support and one that others have also and that you can share tuning maps. Don't get a system that offers gimmicks, trade ins etc. They do this so they get a sale. Choose one that once you have it, it works and does what you need it to do.

For those that have not checked out the latest Link systems, I recommend to take a look at them. Far beyond The Electromotive systems now. www.linkecu.com. Check under support and download the latest PCLink tuning software. You will be amazed at the control.

Without getting into again with my friend, I agree that CDI is the way to go.
Old 06-28-2008, 07:05 PM
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m42racer,
What is your relation to Neil and link ecu?
Just curious.
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Old 06-29-2008, 12:21 AM
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I'm am an extremely satisfied customer. I have never had engineering, service, quality and care, ever, as I have from this company. I have spent huge amounts of money with them and have gotten every bit of it back. He has become a friend but more importantly a person who will do anything to help you.

They are somewhat unknown to most, as they service many of the well known shops, behind the scenes.

I know Don and Sandman will back me up here. TMany others too. The quality, service and customer support is top notch. I have had parts sent all over the world, had tools and equipment sent to other shops in order to help find a problem. All of this at no charge.

If you want to speak to someone who still has a real passion for what we do, talk to Neil.

Yes you could say I am his biggest cheerleader. This is a small part of my thank you to him,as I have received way more than I could ever say here. I know others have received this help as well.
Old 06-29-2008, 10:27 AM
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m42, thanks for the advice. had a long conversation with Don and Neil at LINK and discussed all the merits of both the Gen-3 and Gen-4 LINK system. Seems that everybody is trying to sell you on the newest and latest, at more $$$$ of course. I really dont need a system with an infinite array of options, or one that will 'tune itself' (which the Gen-4 LINK will supposedly do... i'm not kidding you... supposed to diagnose itself based on input and then give you fueling/ timing/ advance, etc options!!!!). The LINK system seems amazing, as well as support, but the TEC-GT system seems to do everything i need, at about half the cost.
__________________
'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 06-29-2008, 11:25 AM
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I have no experience at all with aftermarket ECU's, but, there is no way I would use a TEC on my car unless it was given to me for free (and I didn't have anythig else to hand).
I've read so much -ve on TEC and never any -ve with MS which is cheap so why bother with them.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 06-29-2008, 02:00 PM
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Funny, i've done a lot of research and Electromotive products (Tech3 and newer GT) have a good reputation and no more issues than some of the other stuff out there. They dont get near the bashing they do here. Even Link got bashed a little bit elsewhere. The BMW and high hp Mazda turbo guys seems to love the TEC stuff. I guess it all goes back to who sets it up and how much support. If that is the case, why spend more when you dont have too? Whatever i decide, would be cool to do a thread on the set up and tuning.
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 06-29-2008, 05:34 PM
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Its good you have chosen a system that you like. Often systems are chosen on others opinions. At least you are happy with what you have found.

Good luck.
Old 06-29-2008, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
Well, the saga continues. The honeymoon is over it seems, and the tuning reality is rearing its ugly head. As a followup to the prior post 930/4 Dyno day... the good, the bad and the ugly, fixed fuel pressure issues and are now running into tuning issues with the TEC1 system. Pretty much going nowhere fast, as calls to both Clewett engineering and Electromotive have been unproductive to say the least (no suprise to you guys i'm sure) My question is this.., if i go with say a Spectre or MS2, or whatever ECU, will i be able to keep any stuff from my present system (coil packs, crank trigger, etc) or will i have to ditch the entire system and start from scratch. My tuner is pretty savy with EFI tuning and installs in general, but is a little daunted by starting from ground zero with new system on this car. I have read just about every post here on EFI, and it seems that the Spectre, DTA or MS2 ECUs seem about equally good, but would one 'interface' with my existing system?. I am most familiar with MS, as i tuned my 911SC it, but this is a whole new level. What would you guys do in my position?
You didn't mention what the problem was. If you did, I might be able to help you. I doubt that you need a new system, unless the ECU is fried.

Does it idle? If so the sensors, injectors, and crank signal are working.
Did you observe the timing with a timing light, and does it match what you programmed in for idle (be sure car is fully warm)? If not, you might have a reference offset not calibrated properly.

How did you size your injectors, and what kind are they?

I don't rely on brand names or "cults of personality". EFI is a technical issue, with technical solutions. Work the problem. Don't get frustrated. Use these boards to help you along by saying what is wrong.

For those who haven't started yet on an EFI system, here my biggest piece of advice, "separate the variables". Get the fueling working first with the stock ignition, then add ignition control. Be conservative with your target A/F's (like 12.8 or so), then start dialing in the timing.
Old 06-29-2008, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m42racer View Post
Juicersr,

Follow Don's advice. Not only do you get the best customer service, Neil really knows Porsche engines. One of the top places to go. I think the Link system will be the system of choice once the G4 is out there and people see what it can do. I am sure others here will add to my recommendation of Neil @ Performance Developments.

Choose the best system, choose one that has the best support and one that others have also and that you can share tuning maps. Don't get a system that offers gimmicks, trade ins etc. They do this so they get a sale. Choose one that once you have it, it works and does what you need it to do.

For those that have not checked out the latest Link systems, I recommend to take a look at them. Far beyond The Electromotive systems now. www.linkecu.com. Check under support and download the latest PCLink tuning software. You will be amazed at the control.

Without getting into again with my friend, I agree that CDI is the way to go.

I also will pipe in ... I have been out of town for a few weeks and just saw this post. I bought the G3 from Link. I have yet to get my car running as I am in the process of building some headers for it.... but thats another story in itself. I went with the Link system for a few reasons..one of which was Neil Harvey.. Incredible guy, with incredible knowledge. The second reason ( DonE sold me on this one) was the tech support. If Neil is open, he is available, if he is closed, chances are that the Link factory in New Zealand is open...and they have a US number so with a cellphone that has free long distance, it doesnt cost me a penny!! Third is DonE himself. Seeing the system work in his car, being in the passenger seat on several runs and seeing in real time how the system works, and how to tune it.... and DonE's knowledge on tuning the system..thats all I needed... I bought one. it was a little expensive for my tastes at the time, but now knowing what goes into a whole system ( coilpacks, sensors, wire harness, etc, etc) with all of the features the Link has, it is truely one of the top systems out there. In my book, MoTec will always be one of the best...if not the best, but I did not have the coin to spend on the MoTec, nor did I have anyone local who was familiar with the system. So far, I am very happy with the Link purchase and with the support i have received so far... my .02 worth...
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Old 07-01-2008, 01:31 AM
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