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Bigger turbo = more hp?

I thought I knew but now I can't explain it...

2 turbos, same boost. One big, one smaller. Why would a bigger turbo make more hp if both can hold same boost and same RPM?
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Old 07-15-2008, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobieboy View Post
I thought I knew but now I can't explain it...

2 turbos, same boost. One big, one smaller. Why would a bigger turbo make more hp if both can hold same boost and same RPM?
Single turbo application has a bigger turbo so it can push a larger volume of air. At least that was my understanding.
Old 07-15-2008, 10:46 AM
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Larger turbo (compressor) can compress the same volume of air without heating it as much as a smaller turbo. The larger turbo however takes more time to achieve boost ("spool up") as the larger diameter wheel has more inertia. A smaller turbo can reach requested boost/flow sooner, but will also create more heat, especially at higher flow rates (higher RPMS) as the turbo is spinning so fast it's whipping the air into a froth and creating a lot of aero friction, as well as having to compress the air "faster" due to it's smaller size.
As we know, intake charge heat reduces intake charge density, thus the intercooler. Though the IC can only reduce intake charge somewhat, and comes with it's own compromise as an intake restriction (pressure drop).

I spat this out on a lot of coffee, but I'd be glad to further explain.
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Old 07-15-2008, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFM744 View Post
Larger turbo (compressor) can compress the same volume of air without heating it as much as a smaller turbo. The larger turbo however takes more time to achieve boost ("spool up") as the larger diameter wheel has more inertia. A smaller turbo can reach requested boost/flow sooner, but will also create more heat, especially at higher flow rates (higher RPMS) as the turbo is spinning so fast it's whipping the air into a froth and creating a lot of aero friction, as well as having to compress the air "faster" due to it's smaller size.
As we know, intake charge heat reduces intake charge density, thus the intercooler. Though the IC can only reduce intake charge somewhat, and comes with it's own compromise as an intake restriction (pressure drop).

I spat this out on a lot of coffee, but I'd be glad to further explain.
Thanks for the explanation...

But this is exactly why I'm lost If both turbo can maintain the desired boost at high RPM (say 5000), then it means that flow (volume) is the same despite time to get there is different.

If the IC is big enough, the temp difference or air density is also negligible. So, why would the bigger turbo gives more hp?
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Old 07-15-2008, 12:24 PM
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AFM744 your dead on you just added the next step (IC). Hobieboy all turbos, for the most part, will hold the same boost, but a larger turbo (compressor) will be able to make the same HP as a smaller turbo but with less boost because it moves more CFM than the smaller turbo.
Remember, boost is just a reference. Let's say you have a turbo that flows 600 cfm, and you have another that flows 800 cfm. Each turbo is rated at let's say 15 psi (almost 1 Bar) the 800 cfm turbo will flow 200 cfm more volume of air at the same boost level. So if you turn the boost down on the 800 cfm turbo to let say 10 psi. It would roughly make the same HP at 10 psi as the 600 cfm turbo at 15 psi. This is just an basic explanation.
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Old 07-15-2008, 12:42 PM
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honestly, if both turbo's are making the same amount of air pressure at the same engine rpm and throttle position than i don't see how one would make more horsepower than the other at that same rpm.

someone will have to truthfully explain it otherwise, for me to change my mind...
because it makes no sense the bigger turbo would make more power at a given rpm and throttle position if the amount of boost is the same.

they may say, more volume from the bigger turbo...

seems that if the air volume at given rpm was higher with the bigger turbo than the boost pressure would have to be higher too.

now if you continue to open up the throttle more, or let the rpms rise than the bigger turbo that puts out more air volume will continue to flow more air than the smaller one and that will make more horsepower, but thats not what we are talking about here, i don't think...

Last edited by JFairman; 07-15-2008 at 05:26 PM..
Old 07-15-2008, 12:50 PM
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NO, the wastegate regulates the boost it is not regulated by RPM or TPS. The volume of air is the whole concept of making more HP. That is why you add more aggressive cams, bigger intakes, larger valves, bigger pistons, ported heads ect, ect. The whole idea is to make the engine(nothing more than a air pump) more efficient. And the way to do that is to increase the VOLUME of air entering the combustion chamber. The more air the bigger the bang, the bigger the bang, the more HP is created.
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:00 PM
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I agree GJF, but, and this is what I think JFairman is getting at, is that if at WOT and say 6K RPM you have 1bar of boost measured at (inside) the inlet manifold and providing the charge intake temperature is the same temperature at (inside) the manifold, then how can one turbo make more power than another? Beats me anyway...
The only other explanation is if the smaller turbo is restricting the exhaust getting out of the engine as the bigger turbo will open up the wastegate more than the smaller turbo which needs all the exhaust it can get to maintain turbo speed and therefore cold side flow.
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJF View Post
NO, the wastegate regulates the boost it is not regulated by RPM or TPS. The volume of air is the whole concept of making more HP. That is why you add more aggressive cams, bigger intakes, larger valves, bigger pistons, ported heads ect, ect. The whole idea is to make the engine(nothing more than a air pump) more efficient. And the way to do that is to increase the VOLUME of air entering the combustion chamber. The more air the bigger the bang, the bigger the bang, the more HP is created.
GJF, that's where my mental disconnect is...

If 2 turbos are creating same boost (measured before the butterfly), then isn't both turbo injecting same volume of air?
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:34 PM
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i never said boost is regulated by rpm or tps.
and btw what is "tps" throttle position sensor or throttle position switch... seems it should just be tp for throttle position.

i understand everything about long duration cams, late cam timing, and the intake ram effect they create at high rpms. also short duration cams and how they work making more torque at lower rpms from less overlap... and variable cam timing and lift, but that came much later starting with the nissan 300zx in 1989 and honda after that, and then even later on the germans finally caught on with it.

anyway, the wastegate valve which is opened by intake air pressure doesn't actually regulate boost. it is regulating exhaust manifold pressure by leaking exhaust gasses out to atmosphere which in turn regulates the speed or rpms of the turbine wheel in the hot side of the turbo.
more exhaust pressure means more exhaust gas flow which spins up the turbo to higher rpms which is directly attached to the compressor wheel in the cold side of the turbo which when spinning faster blows more air. if that air has no where to go (a given engine rpm and throttle position holding it back) it builds up pressure as it is being compressed and that is what we call boost.

i understand how compressing air QUICKLY heats it up because the friction between the air molecules during that compression creates heat.

in the end i think we are talking about two different paremeters of the whole sequence and i get tired of plucking away at a keyboard trying to make my thoughts clear so i'll just leave it at that.

that said, i have a K27HFS on my car... or actually it is on a UPS truck heading west right now to get new oil seals and possibly new bearings installed.
i had a K27 7006 on my car before that so i know the difference from experience.
i've also worked on 962's, 935's, and 934's... never got to drive one though other than in a parking lot.
Old 07-15-2008, 01:38 PM
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JFairman, are you saying that you can tell the difference between the two turbo's despite running exactly the same boost pressure? Or does the boost pressure change when using the other turbo?
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Fitting - New service kit.
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:47 PM
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Hi Nathan,
The HFS has a smaller diameter hot side turbine wheel than the 7006 so it is forced to spin faster under a given volume of exhaust gasses blowing through it.
It also has a different shape and design compressor wheel that blows a whole bunch more air than the 7006, and the inlet to the compressor housing is .5" larger in diameter and then venturied down to the same diameter as the 7006.

The result is the 7006 and HFS come on about the same in my car which also has B&B headers, garretson long neck intercooler, 1 bar wastegate spring, IA auto fuel head, Brian Leask adjustable control pressure regulator, and powerhaus group B cams. And the HFS holds boost at sustained high rpms where the 7006 looses boost pressure or runs out of breath in that same situation.

The HFS can really take advantage of a larger intake manifold, larger ports, and longer duration cam, and make lots more top end horsepower than the 7006.
It is a really good turbo. Kevin did a great job making that one.

From my experience, the K27 7006 boost pressure would eventually drop at sustained increasing high rpms like when you are wide open accelerating in 3rd gear. In 1st gear it didn't seem to drop in boost like in 3rd, but 1st goes by so fast it would be hard to notice anyway. 2nd gear goes by quick too and i just don't remember if boost dropped much at high rpms, but i definately noticed it in 3rd while approaching 6800rpm. Never done that in 4th because, lol.. there's no where to do it safely in south florida with all the trafffic here.. that would be over 150mph and kinda crazy.
With the HFS the boost doesn't seem to ever drop in those situations, it just holds full boost all time and the engine sounds meaner while doing it and before you know it you are going scary fast.
...and we like that kind of excitement now, don't we.
i sure never get tired of the rush!

Jim
Old 07-15-2008, 02:17 PM
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Too right
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Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

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Old 07-15-2008, 02:27 PM
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Jim, interesting observation about the 7006 & HFS...

In my case, I have Kevin's original HF. I can maintain boost (@ ~1 bar) all the way to 6200 RPM in 3rd for sure and with my current boost controller setting, to .8 bar in 4th without issue.

To be honest, that is 1 of the reasons why I asked about bigger turbo
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Old 07-15-2008, 03:35 PM
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Simple rules of gas properties, the volume/mass has very little to do with pressure. Superheated air at 3bar may have little more mass (and therefore power potential) over 1bar ambient air. Furthermore, hot intake charge reduces intake cooling and exacerbates preignition, so running a turbo too far beyond efficiency can actually make less power.
Case in point; My Audi S4 made more power at .65bar with RS4 (big, heavy aluminum) intercoolers than on the stock crappy plastic-tank ICs and 1.2bar. Why? Because the end product intake charge was more dense!
A larger centrifugal compressor wheel can create the same intake pressure and heat that air LESS because it has to accelerate that air less. I don't have the exact physics laws to quote, but I know it to be true.
KKK, Garrett, TiAL and other manufacturers test and publish efficiency maps to graphically represent at what pressures and CFM a turbo is moving the most air while creating the least heat.
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Old 07-15-2008, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobieboy View Post
GJF, that's where my mental disconnect is...

If 2 turbos are creating same boost (measured before the butterfly), then isn't both turbo injecting same volume of air?

No, The turbo is nothing more than a pump as well. If the volume of air at 15psi is 800 and the volume on another at 15 psi is 600 then the 800 will make more power. The 800 turbo would also change the duration of ON boost in comparison to the 600 as well.


JFairman in no way should you take my post negatively. Yes the wastegate regulates exhaust to ultamatley control boost, but i am trying to word it as to not add a novel using the keyboard as well.

A 7006 and a HFS really are very simular but the HFS maps out to extend the RPM threshold further. It was more of a upgrade to change the powerband and not really put down bigger numbers.

I think it really is hard to gain huge numbers using CIS. 930's do make substantiial power using CIS and in no way am I bashing anyones car or am I saying that CIS can't make respectable power. I will say that once you hit the 500 mark it is very hard to go further with CIS.
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Old 07-15-2008, 04:25 PM
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If the there is a bottleneck like a restrictive IC or a intake manifold, then, two different turbos of different sizes would see the same volume of air at 15 psi because of the restriction. if there is no restriction then the larger turbo will produce more power because it is pumping more volume. If you want to make huge power with EFI and all the bells and whistles then a large frame turbo is in order because the more boost you want then you need a larger compressor so it won't heat the charge temps to the point that it is heat soaked. the larger turbos help keep the charge temps cooler as they don't over spin the compressor causing the charge temps to skyrocket
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Old 07-15-2008, 04:39 PM
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JFairman what part of S Florida are you in?
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Old 07-15-2008, 04:41 PM
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I'm in West Palm Beach.

You said the 7006 and HFS are very similar. I guess you mean the performance in that the 7006 makes more top end power like the HFS, than the K27 7200.

When you look at a 7006 and HFS side by side they are quite different.
The HFS has a smaller exhaust turbine and the exit into the muffler is smaller in diameter. Looking at that makes me think the HFS would spin faster than a 7006 with the same cfm of exhaust going through it.

On the compressor side the compressor wheel blades are different looking too. You can see some of that difference in the pictures of them on imagine auto's website.
http://www.imagineauto.com/turbos.htm

Also the compressor housing on the newer HFS turbo's is custom made and uses a 3" inlet instead of the 2.5" inlet on the 7006, 7200, and 3LDZ.
The 3" inlet then tapers down like a venturi to what looks like the same size as a 7006 at the wheel.
The HFS compressor housing I own does not say KKK on it anywhere. The exhaust side housing does have the KKK stamping on it.

Do you know if the compressor wheels are made of titanium?
I've heard the turbine blades in some jet engines are.
Old 07-15-2008, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobieboy View Post
I thought I knew but now I can't explain it...

2 turbos, same boost. One big, one smaller. Why would a bigger turbo make more hp if both can hold same boost and same RPM?

If you look at the ideal gas law this might explain the issue. I think it is about heat added through the turbocharger.

Please excuse me, as I haven't studied this stuff in a long time. I finished engineering school in 1994 and don't practice.

However, from the idea gas law.... pV = nRT .

where.....
T = absolute temperature
n = relates to number of molecules of air.
V = we can consider the engine a fixed volume at a snapshot in time and rpm (even though this changes relative to volumetric efficiency, cam timing, lift, etc),
p= pressure
R = ideal bas constant.

We would agree that the more air / gas mixture at the appropriate ratio which you can burn, the more HorsePower (HP).
so.....
n = pV/RT. If R and V are constants and then R & V drop out leaving a constant ratio between n and p / T
n ~ p / T
since n has direct relationship to HP (more air burned correlates to more HP)
then we reduce this to HP ~ P/T.

conclusion: if absolute temperature were higher then HP would drop. Conversely if pressure increases, temp is fixed, HP goes up.

A drop in temperature of 20 F degrees to 150 F from 170 F is about 11 degrees on the absolute scale. 338.5 K from 349.6 K, which equates to 3.0% more molecules of air to burn.
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Last edited by DW SD; 07-15-2008 at 05:18 PM..
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