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F350Lawman's Avatar
 
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Brake upgrade choices

Starting to collect parts for future mods and am thinking about the brakes. What would you guys recommend? Keep in mind I have the below listed mods and will be rebuilding for 400 or so WHP very soon. I also intend to install a cage and run everything into the suspension. So assuming I am goign to have a very fast, stiff car w/ lots of suspension and big rubber, I though the brakes should match. i inntend to do many track days and who knows what else so I want to build once for any eventuality.


1, 928 S4 brakes and use my 930 fronts in the rear (can use my rotos and low cost)
2. 993TT fronts and use my 930 fronts in the rear (proven and not too much ???)
3. 993 TTs all around (got to be awesome but expensive and maybe overkill???)
4. something I didn't mention /??
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1987 930 - K27 7200 / DAS Full Cage / Blownsix Intercooler / BB Headers / Zork Tube / Tial 46mm / Adjustable WUR / RPM Activated Solenoid / Open Element Air Intake / Smart Racing 27mm Sways / 24 and 33mm Torsion Bars / Adj. Spring Plates / Wevo Strut Brace / Monoballs / Tow Hooks / Oil Cooler Scoop / Brey Krauss Harness Truss / Race Seats / XD-16 AFR Guage/ 17" Kodiak Racing Whees and Nitto NT-01 255/315s
Old 07-27-2008, 07:12 PM
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Max Sluiter
 
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What's wrong with your 917 derived brakes now? Are you getting fade? I am sure you can lock the tires which is the real limiting factor as you know. Cooling is a much easier modification.
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Old 07-27-2008, 07:53 PM
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I think I have read your same quote aboute the 917 derived brakes being more than good enough before, but to answer your question:

Nothing is wrong with them.. nothing was wrong with my old HP #s, former tires, and I don't need that much suspension, new rims, etc....but ya know...more is better right???

No in all seriousness, with the 255/315 Nittos I can utilize alot more brakes, on my old setup the stocks were more than enough. Not saying these aren't enough but if I am improving the performance of the car in all other areas can't I do the brakes as well?
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1987 930 - K27 7200 / DAS Full Cage / Blownsix Intercooler / BB Headers / Zork Tube / Tial 46mm / Adjustable WUR / RPM Activated Solenoid / Open Element Air Intake / Smart Racing 27mm Sways / 24 and 33mm Torsion Bars / Adj. Spring Plates / Wevo Strut Brace / Monoballs / Tow Hooks / Oil Cooler Scoop / Brey Krauss Harness Truss / Race Seats / XD-16 AFR Guage/ 17" Kodiak Racing Whees and Nitto NT-01 255/315s

Last edited by F350Lawman; 07-27-2008 at 08:39 PM..
Old 07-27-2008, 08:20 PM
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You can look at the Brembo line up. Lots of upgrage options up to 355mm front rotors. Give me a shout and we can discuss so more....

I use the GTP's on my car, hard to find now as they are being discontinued. They are fabulous brakes.


Cheers
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Old 07-27-2008, 09:00 PM
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My POV is that I wouldn't want to add unnecessary weight to my car. I'd try option 1, it's what I have and works great on the street.
Spend some money on your fluid such as castrol srf (not silicone).
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
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1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
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Last edited by NathanUK; 07-28-2008 at 01:33 PM..
Old 07-28-2008, 12:06 PM
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Our race car came with 928 front & C2 turbo rear calipers. Felt too imbalanced (nose dive) compared to the 930 calipers. Would probably work better with a balance bar. I figure you would probably get more imbalance with the 993's and 930 rears.

An alternative might be the Wilwood GN3 caliper. Six pistons and has 3.5 spacing.

I switched back to the 930 calipers. These calipers worked great on the 917's with 1200 h.p., not sure why folks think they aren't adequate.
Old 07-28-2008, 01:57 PM
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917 brakes

I had alot of revelations on our stock brakes once I started doing more track events. Our stock brakes with a good pad are fantastic. I use pagid orange. What is critical is using the brakes properly. Using them with soft and gentle modulating pressure will not give you a true sense for their potential. Heavy pressure from 140 mph gives a remarkable difference compared to modulating in fear of lock up. I run 275 x 40 and 315 x 35 Hoosiers and I cannot see any reason to spend more money on aftermarket brakes. They work great.
Old 07-28-2008, 02:20 PM
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Well I've been tossing around ideas in my head and researching possibilities, the reason to upgrade brakes are simple, larger thermal reserve.

The 917 was lighter and more efficient than any of our cars will ever be, if you want a better comparison, look at the 935's. Why did they need larger rotors and calipers? They only had 750-800 hp, so the 917 brakes should have worked well right?

If I had a 917 i'd keep it stock, but with the car weights being what they are with the limiting factor of ducting brakes on a street car (picking up all kinds of crap) the easiest thing to improve braking is larger rotors and more capable calipers. Not to mention increased tire sizes, the 993tt had larger brakes for a reason, and that reason wasn't "bling".

I know for my purposes, if I'm going to get up into the 190's, I'm not going to use stock rotors to stop me. I'm going to do what the factory did with their cars they prepared that went that fast.

That being said I'm deciding between PCCB ceramic and GT2 steel, as the PCCB's are actually cheaper than buying original 935 calipers (in new condition).
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Old 07-29-2008, 03:44 AM
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Can you install a modern design ceramic brakes on a 930?
Old 07-29-2008, 05:51 AM
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You also have to remember we can use much more braking force than our cars were originally designed for, that BS- 205/245 combo was NOT up to the task of handling the original brakes (so in that respect the original brakes are more than enough), bigger wheels with 255/315 track oriented tires are another story. You can uses much more of the brakes with the new setup, my thoughts are why not go a little bigger and stop w/ less effort. Even though the original combo was too easy to lock the fronts, I did like that the brakes needed very little input...once I got use to it

I think flipping fronts to rear and adding 928 S4 calipers is probably inline with using all of the new braking grip with similar effort to the original setup. Not too much $$ and uses oriignal equipment. If I see Big Reds or Big Blacks fronts for decent $$, I may jump that way however.
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1987 930 - K27 7200 / DAS Full Cage / Blownsix Intercooler / BB Headers / Zork Tube / Tial 46mm / Adjustable WUR / RPM Activated Solenoid / Open Element Air Intake / Smart Racing 27mm Sways / 24 and 33mm Torsion Bars / Adj. Spring Plates / Wevo Strut Brace / Monoballs / Tow Hooks / Oil Cooler Scoop / Brey Krauss Harness Truss / Race Seats / XD-16 AFR Guage/ 17" Kodiak Racing Whees and Nitto NT-01 255/315s
Old 07-29-2008, 06:27 AM
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Dai, the ceramic rotors are 2 piece allowing different hats to be installed. I have centerlock hubs and any rotors i run will have to have custom hats, its one of those, while you're in there mods. So yes it can be done.

There will be issues fitting calipers, but that's just adapter work.
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Old 07-29-2008, 06:54 AM
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I wouldn't go for ceramic on a car that wouldn't just be used on the street. On a track they get a hard time and they don't cope with itso they will need to be replaced. As they cost a fortune I wouldn't bother.
On the street they would last forever, so they are worth the expense.

How much more are they going to cost in relation to steel?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 07-29-2008, 11:00 AM
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I figured that if they were good enough for the 917... good enough for me! Though I did change to stainless lines, changed fluid, and went to Hawk Blue's for the track.
The stock brakes have been plenty strong for my lapping with repeated decelerations from 130(ish) with minimal fade.
Just my $0.02
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Old 07-29-2008, 03:26 PM
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Since Porsche brakes are my biz.......

Don't make any changes unless you are:

A) Willing to go to a dual master cylinder config - BIG $
B) Willing to put up with crappy brake balance
C) Willing to inve$t in a complete F & R setupo to maintain that balance

Fronts with more pistons, ie more fluid transference will only screw up the F/R brake balance/bias

Trust me, almost any situation will slam waaay too much front bias your way.
You'd be surprised what it takes to ame a 930 'improved' - usually involves a creative rear caliper setup usually coupled with a bias adjuster.

A 'Big Red' setup F&R will give you an unpleasant amount of front lockup.
I can put you in contact with folks who have had these expereices if you want -
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Old 07-29-2008, 06:25 PM
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+1 on keeping the stockers. Great feel, and with good pads, fluid, and ducting, more than up to the task, even with steam-roller sized R comps.
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Old 07-30-2008, 06:16 AM
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I say go for the 993 TT brakes all around if you have the money and only want to do it once. You said you plan to do a lot of track work and 400whp is serious speed potential. IMO you can never have too much brakes and strong brakes will give you more confidence on the track.

My car uses 993 TT calipers and Alcon racing 13" rotors all around with custom aluminum hats. Great setup and I will never have to revisit brakes again.
Old 07-30-2008, 06:39 AM
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Brake information.......wow:
http://home.nycap.rr.com/wmv/generalbrmd.htm
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Old 07-30-2008, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS View Post
Since Porsche brakes are my biz.......

Don't make any changes unless you are:

A) Willing to go to a dual master cylinder config - BIG $
B) Willing to put up with crappy brake balance
C) Willing to inve$t in a complete F & R setupo to maintain that balance

Fronts with more pistons, ie more fluid transference will only screw up the F/R brake balance/bias

Trust me, almost any situation will slam waaay too much front bias your way.
You'd be surprised what it takes to ame a 930 'improved' - usually involves a creative rear caliper setup usually coupled with a bias adjuster.

A 'Big Red' setup F&R will give you an unpleasant amount of front lockup.
I can put you in contact with folks who have had these expereices if you want -

Hey Craig 930 RS Are you really in the Porsche brake biz or is it just a hobby/passion you like? Who is the best 930 caliper rebuilder?

I am in the same boat as the OP....deciding between freshening up my original 930 brakes with rebuilt calipers, SS lines, new rotors, Pagid RS14 pads and SRF or dumping all the old stuff in favor of a custom 996TT 13" front and 12.75" rear package.

Do you really think the 930 brakes are up to the task of hauling down a 2800lb 450rwhp 930 on the track as well as the newer brakes can? Why is a dual M/C required with the upgraded brakes?

No matter which direction I go ducting may not be possible since the car is still street driven and I don’t want to mess with attaching hoses each time I hit the track.
Old 10-14-2008, 10:17 AM
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A few thoughts:

1- I tried the 928s caliper route. The stock rotors can't handle the thermal load.
2- As mentioned, the 917 was probably half the weight of our cars. It could get away. With smaller calipers.
2- You can get scoops that mount to your front control arms from AJ USA Racing I think it is. That or mount some temp scoops where your driving lights are now.

Although I have Big Reds all around, if I had to do it over again, I would move the fronts to the rear and use the Big Reds up front. It's a combinaion that works and rear pads will be much cheaper. I use Pagid yellows at $275 a set. You can always add the Big Reds to the rear if you want later. Also, you can powder coat your fronts before you move them to the rear for looks.

Last edited by A930Rocket; 10-14-2008 at 11:13 AM..
Old 10-14-2008, 11:10 AM
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I don't know too much about the different combinations of calipers and sizes on various Pcars. I however can attest to one thing. I purchased a complete set of 993 twin turbo S front and rear brakes. Bought the rotors from TRG, and all I can say is THEY F'ING STOP!!!! This car almost makes you sick on how fast it stops! I run Pagid pads, and yes they are expensive, and yes the squeal a bit...but OMG...they are awesome!!!
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Old 10-14-2008, 11:29 AM
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