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Wayah Road Warrior
 
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Tuning a Turbo

Is it necessary to have a Dyno to properly tune a 930?

The reason I ask is that my local porsche shop (very well respected in the area and did a great job on my NA car) does not have a dyno in-house.

That being the case, if I were to take my car to them for service, could they REALLY tune it? Or would they be doing all the nomal stuff one would do with a NA car and call that good enough? I am wondering if I would be leaving horses on the table if that were the case.

I did call a dyno-only type shop and they had heard of 'porches' before but had never dynoed one. That made me a little nervous as well. My P-car shop told me they were willing to meet me at the tuner and go from there but now I am a little nervous about putting it on their rack. I have visions of launching through a wall.
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Last edited by Shadetree930; 08-26-2008 at 06:30 AM..
Old 08-26-2008, 05:19 AM
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It depends on what you mean by "tune"

Are you referring to what some people call a "tune up"? Others call it a "Full Service"
Meaning Valve adjustment, plugs, filters, fluids, inspection, etc.?

Then no, you don't need a dyno for that. Many shops simply use a CO meter to adjust the mixture @idle, others don't even need that...

If you want to fine tune your AFR's, or hunt for more power, that's a different story...

What do you want to do?
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:13 AM
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Wayah Road Warrior
 
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I was thinking that next time I take it in for a "Full Service", I would also want to make sure my AFRs are correct. Trying to get it all done one-stop.

I read a lot in here about "going lean", flat spots, digital WURs, air leaks, etc. Whilst my car runs like a raped ape, I wonder about these little gremlins lurking behind me waiting to cause me drama. I don't like drama so I would rather address them pro-actively.

In my mind, a full service is oil, plugs, valves, etc ... but also on a turbo, I consider the full service incomplete if the AFRs have not been properly examined. So the questions are:
  • Is the dyno is a prerequisite?
  • Is an LM-1 (I think I got that right) type device just as good?
  • If the shop is good with NA cars, is it safe to assume they know their way around a turbo?

I just hate to take a well sorted car in and bring out something less ya know?
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:26 AM
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You could try going to the dyno first, Your car is not that hard to strap down. Most non-porsche people should be able to handle it.

Make sure they have wideband 02 datalogging available

I would share the HP/AFR data here and evaluate.

Then you can go to you independent for service and see if he's receptive to any suggestions you offer.

If not, you could always befriend a local wrench willing to work with you on the side, possibly going to the dyno with you to make changes.

If you wind up getting into adjustable WUR world, I suggest you learn how to tune it yourself, or leave it alone.

Just a few random thoughts, hope it helps.
Good luck
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:27 AM
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Wayah Road Warrior
 
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I read about these digital WURs and they sound cool but I am a checkbook mechanic. A digital WUR may be above my pay-grade (Did I just say that? .... PPOT for me! )
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Last edited by Shadetree930; 08-26-2008 at 06:37 AM..
Old 08-26-2008, 06:32 AM
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I see what you mean. Makes sense.

An LM-1 or similar can be better than the dyno, really. It's sampling under real road conditions, in the real world. Just make sure you follow the directions to the T.

If it runs well and has good drivability in most conditions, you may not wanna screw with it, other than service.

The power numbers from the dyno could be helpful as well though.

Maybe just go to the dyno first, If AFR needs work, then invest in an LM1 if you feel comfortable working with it.
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:33 AM
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Wayah Road Warrior
 
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If I took it to the dyno shop ... are there a lot of connections and wires they have to hook up? Is it going to be hard for them to find the right places to hook up without doing more harm than good?
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:34 AM
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Wayah Road Warrior
 
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She runs great! Maybe I am just greedy and want more. You may be right ... if it ain't broke etc...
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:35 AM
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"checkbook mechanic" LOL I've been the "dyno diplomat" for many of those guys down here. It's probably not too hard to find somebody competent to go to the dyno with you, maybe a younger single guy w/ lots of free time. I'm married w/ kids now so those days are less frequent but it was tons of fun in hindsight.

There's not much to hook up, other than a tailpipe sniffer and a clamp around a plug wire...
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:42 AM
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Wayah Road Warrior
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsrmike View Post

There's not much to hook up, other than a tailpipe sniffer and a clamp around a plug wire...
Hmmm .... if its that simple and the p-car is an easy car to strap down ... may not have anything to lose.

Would be cool to see if what I think is well sorted .. really is. Would be even cooler to find out my 'raped ape' could be turned into a 'garage gorilla'.
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:49 AM
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Go for it!
Let us know how it goes!
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Last edited by rsrmike; 08-26-2008 at 09:51 AM..
Old 08-26-2008, 06:53 AM
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As someone in the middle of this, if you have a CIS and not EFI converted car, any shop can dyno a car... really easy and cheap if you just want a 'pull' for HP and AFR's. However, unless your shop guy 'knows' how to work with CIS, you are wasting your $$$$$$$ time (average $100/hour most shops for dyno tuning) You'd be better off with a dedicated P shop with a guy that KNOWS CIS and can tweak it with some LMP datalogging from driving around. Just my $.02
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Old 08-26-2008, 08:12 AM
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The dyno can give you a lot of useful information. Along with AFRs you will also see where the turbo spools and where power drops off.
You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Knowlege is power. If your engine is stockish you can limit the pull to 6000rpm which is very safe.

There is a lot of talk about AFRs, adjustable WURS, digi-WURs and EFI. All that is fine if you wish to extract the absolute last ounce of power and efficiency out of the fuel system. For the majority of folks this is simply not necessary.
Verifying that the system, cold, warm and boost pressures are within spec will get you to a level of efficiency acceptable to Porsche. This can be done by simply replacing a worn out WUR with a rebuilt unit, no adjustment needed.
Thirty years ago when folks took their new 930 to the shop for a tune-up replacing the WUR was on the mechanic's tune-up list and is found in the factory manual. It is a known wear item.
So you have less labor intensive options should you need them ...
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Old 08-26-2008, 08:15 AM
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Hello,
You haven't said what mods have been done to your car. On a stock CIS car, the Dyno is probably/maybe going to turn up some issues with a normal operating CIS. Most likely too rich in parts of your pull. The question is what you are going to do about it? If you are going to do something about it, you may consider doing something about it before hand and doing your tuning during the Dyno pull. If you're not going to mod your car then why do it?

If it were me, I would get an LM-1 or C2Turbo.com gauge setup and check AFR's with a friend calling them off to see what your AFR's are. NO Porsche "Tuneup" does anything with AFR's. They usually set your CO at idle and assume everything else is OK, if you don't have any complaints/issues.

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Old 08-26-2008, 09:23 AM
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Without an adjustable WUR or DigiWUR you don't have any adjustment, so the mechanic couldn't do anything for you anyway. A dyno pull would be good just for peace of mind and for you to see what you have, but don't think if it is rich or lean that he can pop his head under there and fiddle with it because there is nothing for him to adjust. He can set the CO which affects your mixture on tick over but it won't help your afr's on boost. I think for the money it's worth every penny to get your WUR made adjustable, you'll pay for it in saved fuel well within a year, plus you'll extract a bit more power, and have a nice fresh WUR that you don't have to worry about.

Have a good read of the Leask website http://members.cox.net/930wur/

Last edited by JBL930; 08-26-2008 at 09:43 AM..
Old 08-26-2008, 09:38 AM
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Wayah Road Warrior
 
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Running an umolested specimen (except for a really sweet sounding exhaust).

And I did not realize there was nothing to tweak unless I modified the CIS. Given that, I present ...

My Plan:
  1. Strap the beoytch on a dyno and make her howl.
  2. Post the results here
  3. Replace the WUR with a factory replacement (if the posted results warrant such)
  4. Drive it like I stole it
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Last edited by Shadetree930; 08-26-2008 at 09:56 AM..
Old 08-26-2008, 09:53 AM
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You can't just buy a new WUR anymore, it would have to be a reconditioned unit, which begs the question why you wouldn't get Leask to do it and have it made adjustable. It will be the same WUR that came on the car, just with a few bits added to give you some control, it still operates in exactly the same way but it allows you to add fuel or take fuel away if you need to. You'd be a bit mad not to. You can ask him to check the settings on it before he strips it down and he can set it back up exactly the same, then only adjust it if you need to
Old 08-26-2008, 09:58 AM
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Wayah Road Warrior
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL930 View Post
You can't just buy a new WUR anymore, it would have to be a reconditioned unit, which begs the question why you wouldn't get Leask to do it and have it made adjustable. It will be the same WUR that came on the car, just with a few bits added to give you some control, it still operates in exactly the same way but it allows you to add fuel or take fuel away if you need to. You'd be a bit mad not to. You can ask him to check the settings on it before he strips it down and he can set it back up exactly the same, then only adjust it if you need to
Well now you're just trying to push me down "the slippery slope".

I will go back and read the Leask thread with a different perspective now.
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:04 AM
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Having a worn WUR rebuilt vs modification to make it adjustable vs buying the Leask unit is just another option to consider. Unless you do the work yourself it is also the least expensive option at less than $100. This option assumes you don't want to mess with the fine tuning required if you have your (assumed faulty) WUR made adjustable.
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:06 AM
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One important thing that nobody has mentioned is to have a huge blower pushing air through the IC. Non Porsche guys never do this and could damage your engine, not to mention waste your time and money for sure.

It would appear that you and also your tuner don't have enough knowledge about all of this.
The info is all here on this forum. Read the whole section of this forum and I'm sure when you've read it all and asked for help in the threads you don't understand it will all seem much easier.
I knew nothing about the 930 until I hung around these type of forums.

I'm sure this will help you, have fun.
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:09 AM
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