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Bryan: Your picture "drew a blank"....unless that's a picture of the white smoke that completely obliterated the entire area....in which case you'd better add some oil to the car before you drive further.

chuck

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Old 09-09-2008, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Jones View Post
Bryan: Your picture "drew a blank"....unless that's a picture of the white smoke that completely obliterated the entire area....in which case you'd better add some oil to the car before you drive further.

chuck
Chuck, I'm still wheezing from that roadside stop
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
Yes, I agree, I chose to keep the oil separator... just cleaned it up since it had 21 years of oil residue on it. It is important that if you decide to take this off, you need to make sure you vent that tank still. At least if it does build up pressure the oil will come out of the vent rather than into the CIS.

Regarding the turbo (K27S) from Imagine and Ultimate Motorwerks. I know that the stock 3DLZ, KKK or whatever we are calling it is in no way comparable to the K27S, but that turbo has 96,000 miles and the shaft has absolutely no play in any direction. My concern is that the standard turbo could handle if there was an oil issue (starvation or too much) but the K27S cannot.

The car is bone stock except the Turbo, Exhaust and IC. I would think that since the K27S does not need any restrictions or increased oil flow over the standard Turbo.... why did mine go bad so quickly?

Your thoughts are welcomed?

Bryan
Hi Bryan,
When I refer to the KKK, I'm referring to the whole family of KKK turbochargers. That includes the 3LDZ, K-27, etc. Maybe Kevin of Ultimate or Stephan of Imagine can chime in, but I was under the impression that the compressor side of the K27S or HFS(I can't remember the nomenclature) is what makes the turbo's unique. I thought these compressors retained the same type of bearing and seal as their predecessors. Hopefully they will read this thread and chime in.

The turbo seal could have failed which then caused the bearing to fail in no time at all. I'm assuming that you are using the same type of oiling circuit that came from Porsche.

You mentioned in a previous message about how people test to see if the scavenging sump pump is working properly. All you have to do is disconnect the scavenge line from the turbo drip tank and place it in a container and place the container below the drip tank to catch the oil. With the engine running, the scavenge pump should be able to keep up with the discharge from the turbo.

When you get your new turbo, it is important the turbo is "primed" with oil so that the turbo has oil inside so it is not starved for oil on first start-up. I generally prime the turbo from the top, adding just enough oil that oil starts dripping from the drip tank. Then hook up the feed and scavenge lines.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 09-10-2008, 07:46 AM
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Response

Dave,

your response regarding the sump pump makes sense. As long as it keeps up with the oil coming out of the drip tank we should be OK and can eliminate the concern that oil is jamming up in that area. (Note: I know that my scavenge is working as it has been checked in the past, just not sure how efficient of course.)

Also, I will for sure prime the turbo. The last time, I pulled the fuel relays and coil wire while turning the starter over until oil came out of the drip tank. I'm sure that is sufficient to prime.

Thanks for the help.
Old 09-10-2008, 08:28 AM
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Yeah, I guess I may be a bit too anal.
Since the engines are nothing but big air compressors, I worry that air coming out the exhaust ports going over the turbine blades may spin the turbine. That's why I prime the the turbo before cranking the engine.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:47 AM
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Bryan, is the turbos shaft movement endplay or bearing failure?

AFAIK the S & HFS uses a normal K27 centre section & this is different to the K26 (3DLZ) centre section.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 09-10-2008, 01:35 PM
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Hello!

1. Check that you are not ingesting oil trough oil-breather.
2. Check compression and leak-down.
3. Check valve stems for wear (yes, you need to remove cam covers)
4. Check scavenging pump.
5. If everything is OK, you might have a blown turbo bearing seals or worn bearings.

Personally, I find your chances to be like this:

15% faulty scavenging/breather/whatever
25% valve stem wear
35% blown turbo
25% cracked piston compression rings
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:18 AM
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Beep Beep

I removed the elbow from the CIS and there really wasn't any residue in there. Question: When I reach full boost and my BOV opens wouldn't that introduce some of the oil from the IC into that elbow from the blown turbo gasket?

If so, then there should be at least a little residue which there is... but barely even noticeable on my finger.

Seems to be ok. Still no word on the Turbo. I will keep everyone updated.

Bryan
Old 09-16-2008, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
I removed the elbow from the CIS and there really wasn't any residue in there. Question: When I reach full boost and my BOV opens wouldn't that introduce some of the oil from the IC into that elbow from the blown turbo gasket?

If so, then there should be at least a little residue which there is... but barely even noticeable on my finger.

Seems to be ok. Still no word on the Turbo. I will keep everyone updated.

Bryan
All good points. If you just feel a film of oil, there is no oil blowing out from the oil tank into the intake.
When the BOV opens, you would get some oil recirculated into the air. This would cause a "puff" of smoke out the exhaust when the BOV closes again and the throttle is opened. You experienced smoke when you were going downhill with the throttle closed or partially opened, right?
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 09-16-2008, 09:15 AM
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The Big News

Here are the pics of the turbo from Kevin at Ultimate Motorwerks.

You should all know that at some point prior to me purchasing the turbo (never used but bought from private party) there was some damage to the outer casing on the compressor side of the turbo. When I received the turbo everything seemed fine so I didn't worry about it. I'm not saying this caused the failure, but possibly some pre-mature play in the shaft. Anyways, looks like I have more serious problems that need to be addressed. Also, for those who are wondering, my oil has been changed twice in the last 800 miles.

One last thought, when these turbo seals went, I drove the car about 60 miles back to my house while occasionally smoking (of course), so not sure if this would have made everything look worse or not.

Enjoy,

Bearings (the one on the right is from another turbo with 67k on the clock. My turbo had 800 miles)



Outer compressor housing. You can see the damage on the bottom right of the picture below where the turbo must have been dropped. The damage inside was a foreign object that was introduced at some point.

[/img]

Thrust Collar:



Turbine Wheel/Shaft:

Old 09-17-2008, 07:27 PM
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Blue hardening on the left side of the shaft is a tell-tale. That bearing was overheated...
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:40 AM
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I'm having a hard time trying to work out exactly what this picture is of. Can you take one further away for me?



Also, what is that on the bearings? Burnt oil?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 09-18-2008, 12:43 PM
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Does anyone think debris from the headers caused any of this?
Along with the turbo, the headers were also new.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:53 PM
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Tear in turbo intake housing is FOD damage. A piece of metal, gravel or welding spot that got loose. I guess you'll never know. Is compressor damaged? If not, then housing was probably mated with new compressor.

Shaft itself was probably overheated at some point due to oil starving. Bearing itself is made of much softer material so shaft can survive this better than bearing cartridge.

Anyway, this is much less of a problem than broken compression rings.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
I'm having a hard time trying to work out exactly what this picture is of. Can you take one further away for me?



Also, what is that on the bearings? Burnt oil?
I believe that is the cold side of the turbo air intake. If there were debris damage, the impeller would be toast. This poor turbo was abused by the PO before it was even installed.

Burnt oil, coke, tar, all the above.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 09-18-2008, 12:59 PM
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Thanks Dave, I think I see it now. The brown part poking through threw me a little. I wonder if they did that damage trying to fit the hose connection? I hear (OK, read) it's a PITA and the trick is to warm a new hose in hot water first.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 09-18-2008, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
Here are the pics of the turbo from Kevin at Ultimate Motorwerks.

You should all know that at some point prior to me purchasing the turbo (never used but bought from private party) there was some damage to the outer casing on the compressor side of the turbo. When I received the turbo everything seemed fine so I didn't worry about it.
Nathan,
I think that statement just above sums up what could have happened to the turbo. If it was dropped by the PO, think about how much force would be required to make an indentation like that. I'm not saying it was dropped, but I can't imagine anyone hitting the housing that hard with a tool.
All speculation, and my $0.02, of course.
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Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 09-18-2008, 01:36 PM
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For me, given the heat damage to the shaft (after only 800 miles), I am surprised the engine is still in one piece. If the heat was high enough to burn the shaft, the exhaust port temp must have been unbelievable. I would not be surprised to see the pistons frosted.
Old 09-18-2008, 04:31 PM
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Thoughts

The car runs great. I purchased a Innovate AFR gage yesterday so we will see what happens with readings and how bad they really are. I hope there is not a more serious problem hiding in the wings.

The Turbo was brand new (never had heat to exhaust side) from a PO that had it for a month and purchased it from Stephen at Imagine. I'm not sure what happened to the compressor housing to cause that dent but the damage inside was not from me during installation and the damage was not there before I installed it. I'm not sure how the FOD did not hurt the impeller/blades... so this is a bit of a mystery.

Yes, the bearing was overheated and the shaft looks bad. Remember, I drove this car about 60 miles after this happened so that is most likely why the bearing are so dark with burnt oil.

I will keep everyone posted.

Bryan
Old 09-18-2008, 07:38 PM
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Bryan:

SO???? I keep waiting to hear how the car runs now that Kevin has fixed your turbo...and you've sort of fallen thru the cracks. How much better does it run with the rebuild by Imagine Auto? Kevin knows his stuff when it comes to the HFS....since he builds them to begin with.

Give us an update...or are you going to make another excuse why we can't get together so I can whip your butt on a run up the foothills?

Chuck

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Old 10-06-2008, 04:31 PM
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