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Update

Chuck,

Thanks for thinking of me. Kevin is with Ultimate Motorwerks and Stephen is with Imagine Auto who sells Kevin's K27 line of turbos.

As for the turbo, I am still waiting for it. It has taken a little longer than expected but I know Kevin is very busy and per our conversation last week it should be in the mail soon.

I will absolutely keep you posted on the progress.

On another note, I was checking my intake the other day and I had to turn all 12 nuts at least 1 full turn (sometimes 2) to reach the specified 18 ft/lbs of torque that is recommended on the intake. This thing must have been leaking between the intake and phenolic blocks that hold the injectors. I guarantee that every time I went into boost the car leaned out pretty bad (I think...). Anyways, I think that may have been the main reason for the turbo failure if I had to point the finger at something. I am getting plenty of oil out of my oil feed line so it was not oil starvation.

I'll be in touch. And yes, we will meet at some point. I wont let off the throttle like Rod!!!!

Bryan

Old 10-06-2008, 05:03 PM
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holy crap, sounds like you coulda been overspeeding the turbo. It will actually go rich under that condition as the compressor is pulling more air past the sensor plate than the engine is actually ingesting, and yes, it will quickly kill a turbo. The loss of pressure makes the turbo spin faster as there is less pressure on the signal line going to the wastegate per a given turbine speed.

You should consider doing an intake leak test before installing your new turbo. It's possible you may need new injector blocks and or intake gaskets. (hopefully not but worth testing)

Good luck
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Old 10-06-2008, 06:59 PM
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Question

Mike,

How do I perform the intake compression/leak test? I'm guessing it may be under the search field but if you could help (maybe even with pic's) it would be very helpful.

The car is pretty buttoned up except putting on the turbo and IC. After I installed the Innovate AFR gage and tightened everything up I decided to get her ready so when I receive the turbo I'm only an hour from starting her back up to work with AFR's.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Bryan
Old 10-06-2008, 07:59 PM
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The damage to the inlet side of the compressor housing appears to be an abrasion from the coil wire found on the inside of single wall SCAT/Aeroduct hose.

X98boardwell, early on you mention two oil changes in the last 800 miles. What weight and type of oil are you filling with?

This is likely a mute point, but what is the condition of your air filter? is it oil soaked or clogged?

Those are some really cooked turbo bearings!

Last edited by Jim2; 10-06-2008 at 08:10 PM..
Old 10-06-2008, 08:00 PM
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Hey Bryan, I don't have any pics, nor am I very good @ posting them (i'm still a noob w/ this BBS stuff).

It's pretty simple, you do need an air compressor (or a really big airtank), you could even use a small bottle of gas like compressed nitrogen or such

You also need some sort of fitting to plug into the inlet tract to the turbocharger.

You could buy one here:
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=160&osCsid=0c4a081640241e944cf93a51cd6eafa1
(i've bought from these people, seems like a good company)

Although I've never tried it w/ a valvestem setup like that ( you could always mod it and plug an air tool fitting w/ regulator on it)

If you do a search you should see several different methods w/ lots of pictures and details, I'll try to take a peek later...
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Old 10-07-2008, 05:38 AM
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??

Jim2, What is scat/aeroduct hosing? I am using 20/50 Castrol and will be going to synthetic here shortly. The reason for my frequent oil changes was due to mod's and maintenance that required me to drain the oil.

RSRMike, I will do some research and see what I can find out. Thanks for the input.

Bryan
Old 10-07-2008, 06:09 AM
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Your oil viscosity is good. I've seen a couple occasions where lighter viscosity oil passes through the turbo bearings more easily and ovecomes the capacity which the turbo scavenge pump takes up at low engine RPMs.

Aero duct hose frequently gets used in place of rubber or silicone couplers on the inlet side of the turbo for custom applications. It has an exposed wire coil on the inside of the hose.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ap/ducting.html
Old 10-07-2008, 07:34 AM
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Jim

Jim2,

The only tubing that I have like that is for my heaters that connect the headers to the heater boxes. Since the air is moving away from the motor at that point I'm guessing that this could be ruled out as a possible issue.

Also, to answer an earlier question you had, I have a K&N air filter and it is not oil soaked.

Thanks for your input,

Bryan
Old 10-07-2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonE View Post
For me, given the heat damage to the shaft (after only 800 miles), I am surprised the engine is still in one piece. If the heat was high enough to burn the shaft, the exhaust port temp must have been unbelievable. I would not be surprised to see the pistons frosted.
The shaft rotates over 100 000 RPM at boost. If oil supply is cut for some reason even for a short moment, friction between shaft and brass bearing sleeve will heat up the shaft quickly.

Personally, I believe his engine is probably OK but turbo is toast.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:58 PM
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You can pressurise the intake spacers while you have the IC off.
You may need to remove plenum too - can't remember which way I did it - but plenum is easy.
You get a big bung and block the intake throat - about 90 mm from memory.
Then hook air cylinder, or compressor with control valve on to an outlet in the system. You will find a hose connection point somewhere. Have a press gauge in the line - take up to your boost pressure. If you have a bad leak, you won't even get that far before you hear air hissing out from under the spacer blocks. With your free hand - you probably have the other holding the 90mm bung in, feel around the spacer blocks. If you have a leak you will feel it - particularly if you wet your hand.
Alan
Old 10-08-2008, 04:15 PM
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Welcome to my past world. Very very long story short = rebuild the turbo.
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Old 10-09-2008, 04:39 PM
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It pays still, to pressurise the system for leaks. It is the best way to find them.
Looking at my half stripped motor last night, with you in mind, you probably do need to take the plenum off. Quite simple, and makes checking the sealing of the phenolic spacers quite easy.
Alan
Old 10-09-2008, 04:42 PM
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Updates

Hello, I apologize I took this long to update everyone. I finally put my car back together this past weekend. Here is how the events went down.

1) Recieved turbo back 4 weeks ago from rebuild.
2) Installed and car started and it was fine as long as I had the scavenge pump line disconnected.
3) Hooked up scavenge pump line and turbo started to blow smoke past the seals again (car still on jack stand... have not driven it)
4) Realized that scavenge pump may be bad. Ordered seal kit from TurboKraft (Chris...great guy) and rebuilt scavenge pump. No difference to the naked eye if it was working better.
5) Drove the car around the block to see if it was an issue and people must have thought there was an oil fire around due to the huge cloud of smoke. I was an Uncle Buck inpersonator (John Candy in case you missed that)
6) During this time, Kevin at Ultimate requested that I send the turbo back to make sure it wasn't the turbo. Everything seemed fine. I recieved the turbo after 4 weeks and he said that it looked good.
7) In the meantime, I added an additonal AN fitting to the other end of my drip tank along with an AN fitting in the Chain cover on the passenger side to help with removing the excess oil (pictured below).
8) Put the car together this last weekend and now have 100 miles (no boost yet) and everything seems to be ok.
9) I will be getting a leakdown in the near future but I have an issue that I had prior to this one which I could use some help figuring out.

The symptoms, Please read this carefully...

The temperature outside is around 55 degrees. When I am driving the car (remember, no boost yet) the car will never heat up appropriately to the desired temperature.

Anytime there is load on the car (taking off from dead stop or pushing on gas at low rpm's) the car will buck like it's missing on 2 of the six cylinders or no fuel. It doesn't matter how long I drive the car for, this will happen. Now for the really weird part... if I stop, shut off the car and let some of the heat from the motor fill the engine bay heating up components (like the WUR, spark plug wires which are brand new and other things) I can go to the car and start it up 10 minutes later and the car will run great with absolutely no bucking or hesitation at all for about 2 blocks. As soon as the cold air gets back into that area, the entire thing happens all over again.

Any suggestions? I have posted some pic's of my drip tank so you can get the idea of what I did. If anyone else needs some photo's, I will be happy to take tomorrow.

Thanks for your help in advance,

Bryan




Old 11-22-2008, 06:11 PM
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I must have this wrong - why are you scavenging the timing case? There is oodles of drain back to the crankcase from there - on RHS. What is happening to your turbo oil flow if you are scavenging this bit?
Your other symptom is truely weird - but I suspect not related to the effect you are linking it too.
Basically it sounds like your car is starving for fuel - except for short period on warm startup.
I would suggest monitoring the fuel pressures (ex WUR), and check injectors are flowing OK. You could just have two crappy injectors.
Regards
Alan
Old 11-22-2008, 09:55 PM
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Sorry - LHS for that one.
Alan
Old 11-22-2008, 09:56 PM
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Could it be something like the Air bypass valve not fully opening and closing properly until hot and fully opening?

My car bucks at the slightest throttle but is fine under more throttle and boost or idle (My car does this cold warm or hot). I also noticed that my rpms are low on start up and warm but come up once hot. I think I need a new thread for my car's problems.

The best thing to do would be to check control pressures and afrs at start-up, warm and then hot operation.
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Old 11-23-2008, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan L View Post
I must have this wrong - why are you scavenging the timing case? There is oodles of drain back to the crankcase from there - on RHS. What is happening to your turbo oil flow if you are scavenging this bit?
Your other symptom is truely weird - but I suspect not related to the effect you are linking it too.
Basically it sounds like your car is starving for fuel - except for short period on warm startup.
I would suggest monitoring the fuel pressures (ex WUR), and check injectors are flowing OK. You could just have two crappy injectors.
Regards
Alan
Alan, he is not scavenging the timing case... trust me, the suction side of the engine driven oil pump sucks WAY more than the small turbo scavenge pump could ever do. Second, the AN fitting that is welded to the chain cover is below the bottom of the turbo where the drip tank bolts up. So, if the turbo scavenge pump is not working to its fullest potential, the excess oil will drain into the SS line and into the chain cover before it creates a back up and gets pushed out his turbo seals. This has worked on countless other turbos... it is a very cheap way (under 100 bucks) to fix the problem, instead of buying a used scavenge pump ( and risk that it too, is also warn), or spend upwards of a grand to buy a new one, or between 500 to 1000 bucks for an aftermarket bolt on pump ( not the kind that you bolt to the firewall, but a custom pump that runs off the cam, just like the factory one).
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Old 11-23-2008, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
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The best thing to do would be to check control pressures and afrs at start-up, warm and then hot operation.

VERY good advice.... you dont even have a starting point, until you know what the pressures are....
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Old 11-23-2008, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
..........................The symptoms, Please read this carefully...

The temperature outside is around 55 degrees. When I am driving the car (remember, no boost yet) the car will never heat up appropriately to the desired temperature.

Anytime there is load on the car (taking off from dead stop or pushing on gas at low rpm's) the car will buck like it's missing on 2 of the six cylinders or no fuel. It doesn't matter how long I drive the car for, this will happen. Now for the really weird part... if I stop, shut off the car and let some of the heat from the motor fill the engine bay heating up components (like the WUR, spark plug wires which are brand new and other things) I can go to the car and start it up 10 minutes later and the car will run great with absolutely no bucking or hesitation at all for about 2 blocks. As soon as the cold air gets back into that area, the entire thing happens all over again.

Any suggestions? I have posted some pic's of my drip tank so you can get the idea of what I did. If anyone else needs some photo's, I will be happy to take tomorrow.

Thanks for your help in advance,

Bryan
Concerning this problem, I would check the control pressures cold, then warm. It could be lean in the first scenario you described, which could be a leaky Auxiliary Air Regulator. That can be quickly checked by disconnecting the air hoses from the unit and plugging the ends of the hoses after the engine has idled for a while. ( <3 minutes)
1.) Start the engine and let it idle until it reached normal idle speed.
2.) Then turn off the engine and plug the hoses on both sides of the AAR.
3.) Start the engine it should idle normally at the factory recommended RPM's (950-1000).
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Old 11-23-2008, 05:49 AM
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Werk-i

That is a great idea and easy to do. It seems that all the time my AFR's are bouncing... never consistent at idle. When it bucks, they jump into the 16's for a second because of loss of fuel I'm guessing.

Just to clarify, the AAV or AAR is the one that sits in front of the WUR and connects to the IC correct? If so, do I just plug the holes where the hose was before?

Lastly, when you said "leaky AAV", were you referring to the hose or the valve itself, because the hose on my car is brand new so just making sure. Could you clarify how it would be leaking and let me know if I'm correct on the description and what to remove?

Alan L, I figured you read the post incorrectly, I know that you know you shi& so no worries. I have a donor WUR from the same year car that I know is working correctly, if it's not the AAV, then I can put that on and see.


Please advise,
Bryan

Old 11-23-2008, 07:08 AM
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