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Forced Induction Junkie
 
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Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
That is a great idea and easy to do. It seems that all the time my AFR's are bouncing... never consistent at idle. When it bucks, they jump into the 16's for a second because of loss of fuel I'm guessing.

Just to clarify, the AAV or AAR is the one that sits in front of the WUR and connects to the IC correct? If so, do I just plug the holes where the hose was before?

Lastly, when you said "leaky AAV", were you referring to the hose or the valve itself, because the hose on my car is brand new so just making sure. Could you clarify how it would be leaking and let me know if I'm correct on the description and what to remove?

Alan L, I figured you read the post incorrectly, I know that you know you shi& so no worries. I have a donor WUR from the same year car that I know is working correctly, if it's not the AAV, then I can put that on and see.


Please advise,
Bryan
Bryan,
Just plug the hoses going to and from the AAV. That will prevent air entering the intake either through the IC or from the output side of the AAV.
Yes, it is the aluminum device slightly rearward (towards rear of car) of the WUR.
The AAV has an internal valve that is normally closed when then engine has been running for a few minutes. It allows a cold engine to fast idle when the throttle body is closed. After a few minutes the AAV closes. It only has an effect at low engine speeds since the valve can not flow as much as the throttle body.
Don't be surprised that your idle speed, once the engine starts, may be either too high or too low. I've seen a lot of instances, by mechanics, where the idle screw on the throttle body is adjusted to compensate for a defective or erratic AAV.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 11-23-2008, 07:34 AM
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Werk-i

Gracious. I will report back. If no result, then install donor WUR and see.

B
Old 11-23-2008, 07:52 AM
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Bryan,

Here is a link for an inexpensive CIS pressure tester. Swapping out your WUR for one of unknown condition is IMO not going to be a conclusive step.


http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2008126/c-10101/Nty-1/p-2008126/Ntx-mode+matchallpartial/N-10101/tf-Browse/s-10101/Ntk-AllTextSearchGroup?Ntt=cis
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Old 11-23-2008, 08:14 AM
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Dan

I would be installing a WUR from my buddy's 87 930 (same year). He currently has his motor out for 21 yr maintenance and it runs great with only 45k on the clock. I don't see why this would be an issue and fairly simple.

I'm guessing you thought I had one laying around that I would put in to see. This would be the exact same one as mine and functions great.

Thanks for the link, if I get to that point, then I would be happy to do that. I have a Harbor Freight a few miles from my house.

Bryan
Old 11-23-2008, 09:08 AM
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Ideally, monitoring the fuel pressures would be the best shot - but a short cut would be to swap the WUR if you have one that you know works fine. If that fixes the problems, then you have isolated it to the WUR/fuel pressures.
If not, then you are looking for air leaks of crappy injector(s) possibly.
I'd be fairly sure you have a leaness from one of 3 possibilities - fuel pressures (CPs) - air leaks (could be AAR as suggested) - injectors gummed/blocked.
Right - so the AN fitting on timing case is to DRAIN excess oil from scavenge reservoir. Now I get it.
But doubt I could do this on my engine - I think my turbo sits too low - ie reservoir is below the chain case, I think. Hence could not relate to pic.
Regards
Alan
Old 11-23-2008, 09:20 AM
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Well,

Since my last post I have done the following with no changes,

1) Installed my buddies WUR.. no change, exactly the same
2) Plugged my AAR hoses... no change, except the idle was steady, meaning not adjusting for coldness, that sort of stuff. Still hesitating.

For the record, I have new injectors. Since I know my buddies WUR is working correctly, just removed his motor last week, what could it be??? I'm fairly confident that the WUR and AAR are doing there job, so it leaves me with air leaks, which I dont see any. I have headers, B6 IC and K27s. Where are possible air leaks that may be hard to find and why would it only do it when the car is moving with cold air being supplied through the tail?

If you remember from my above post, if I let the car sit for 10 minutes after running and the heat from the motor disperses around the engine bay the car will run fine for a block or two. Once cold air enters the system again, I have the same hesitation under load at low rpm's.

Ideas?

Bryan
Old 11-23-2008, 12:42 PM
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Bry, Have you replaced your intake gaskets? Have you inspected the phenolic spacers ( where your fuel injectors screw into). Mine were cracked from numerous heat cycles and age... the gaskets were shot as well. When the motor is cold, it could be sucking a little of air....then when the motor heats up a bit, the gaskets seal better, hence making the issue disappear.... just a thought
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Old 11-23-2008, 12:49 PM
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You could have leaks under the phenolic spacers - the bits the injectors screw in to - or a bunch of hoses.
The best way and only way really to check is pressurise the system. I go in via the inlet rubber elbow - to 0.5 bar pressure. ny leaks, you will hear air pi***ing out.
Alan
Old 11-23-2008, 12:52 PM
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Sorry - wrong pic - will try again.
Alan
Old 11-23-2008, 12:52 PM
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This pic.
Alan
Old 11-23-2008, 12:54 PM
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Alan, thats a good idea, but what about the cyl with open intake valves... you would always hear air escaping as there will always be one cyl with an intake valve cracked... and you would have to pressurize the whole system past the TB in order to get the intake pressurized enough to hear air coming out of the seals...

maybe take your idea and spray some dawn soap/ water mixture around the intake and where you see bubbles...you have a leak....
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Old 11-23-2008, 12:59 PM
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This works. Trust me. Have done it many times - as recent as 2-3 weeks ago to check for a problem. Once you are set up for it - the plumbing fiting, it takes about a half hour.
There is a small degree of valve overlap.
I use my hobby compressor, dialled back, to hook in to the system. It has more than enough capacity as long as not major leaks, to get to 0.5 bar.
You put a spanner on the fan pulley and rotate slowly while compressing. You will see the pressure gauge rise and fall with the overlap. Turn it to a peak, then put your hand/ear/soapy water, whatever around the topside of engine.
If you have any leaks, you will find them. Trust me.
I had so many it took weeks of assembly/disassembly to get rid of them all. As you loose the big ones, you find the small ones.
The fitting cost about $10 to make up from plastic plumbing bits.
Don't go over 0,5 bar - no need to, and I dont know how much the elbow would take before splitting. But it seems OK at 0.5 bar.
Regards
Alan.
Old 11-23-2008, 01:10 PM
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Bryan,
The way you describe that condition where the engine will run fine for a few minutes after a restart, reminds me of something. When I have done something like that with mine, the engine will fast idle for 1 to 2 minutes before it settles at the correct idle. I think your engine runs fine during that period, after restart, is because the CIS is in enrichment mode.
It sure sounds like an air leak somewhere. I would focus on the areas where you worked last when you replaced the injectors. Those areas would be the O-rings on both ends of the IC, hoses for the BOV, distributor vacuum line, and last but not least the phenolic spacers.

One way to check the phenolic spacers is to spray butane around the blocks, one at a time, while the engine is running. The engine speed should increase when the leaky spacer is sprayed. Just be very careful with getting too crazy with the butane.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 11-23-2008, 01:20 PM
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Have you checked ignition timing? I chased a part throttle stumble/miss for months on my car which I was sure related to a fuel problem or intake leak. After checking everything, rechecking everything, then coughing up 600 bucks for new injectors, problem was still there. $40 timing light revealed the problem.
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Old 11-23-2008, 03:41 PM
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Alan L,

I like your idea. When I think back I remember that at one point I noticed that my phenolic spacers were almost hand tight... not the recommended 18 ft/lbs of torque. I'm guessing that these are old, shrunk and causing me problems. I wonder how difficult it will be to remove the Intake (CIS and all) while the motor is still in the car? Would I have to lower the back 1/2 of the motor to clear the firewall when I lift off the studs?

WERK-I,

I understand you're theory, but my car stumbles under load even after I have driven the car for 2 hrs if cold out. If I stop then start back up after 10 minutes, problem solved. I'm guessing phenolic blocks. I would be scared to use the butane on a hot motor. I'm sure it's somewhat safe, but it just scares me. Based on my above comments I think we may have the problem.

jwasbury,

Based on my previous threads about the car sitting and running fine this could not be the issue. For the record my timing has been checked about 3 times in the last 4 months. I do appreciate the input as you had no idea what I have done with the car other than my descriptions of the problem.

To Everyone,

Can I remove the CIS/Intake with the motor in? Do I have to sag the motor to make this happen? I have A/C, Air-pump, aftermarket IC (makes it easier) and many vacuum lines.

Thanks for all your input. We will get this figured out so when the next person has this problem he/she will have one more story to look at and decide if my symptoms matches theirs.

Bryan
Old 11-23-2008, 03:55 PM
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Bryan,
Have you ruled out all of your vacuum and pressure hoses, intake o-rings, air intake pathway from CIS metering plate, through the turbo, all the way to the engine intake throttle body? Have you ruled out you have the wrong injectors? We know the engine is running lean.....is there anything you've done in terms of mods to the engine that would normally require adding more enrichment?
You can remove the CIS intake with the engine in the car, but your back will probably never forgive you. It's not that the intake is heavy, it's all that time bent over! Had some very nice back cramps from that one!
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 11-24-2008, 07:14 AM
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Bryan - if you look at the first pic I posted - you can strip all the fuel/ air stuff off without removing motor. I have had all my stuff off/out several times. Can do it on auto pilot now.
Much of it was for chasing leaks. My phenolic spacers were leaking like crazy.
The only way to test all the hoses/connections/gaskets etc is to do as I suggest - and do myself.
It works. You will find every leak. And it took me some time to deal to them all. But to do this method - you dont have to remove anything but the airbox elbow.
From memory I flip it end for end, and rotate 90 deg, to get it located in the only space there is. This tests all your turbo intake side as well - intercooler, O rings etc.
If you want I can post a detailed pic of the unit I made - but you get the idea.
Regards
Alan
Old 11-24-2008, 09:20 AM
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I have since my last post removed everything that holds the intake/cis down. Including air-pump, vacuum lines, throttle linkage, fuel lines to the accumulator and supply line from pump, spark plug wires for cylinders 4,5 & 6, IC, air-box, breather from engine to oil separator, all electrical connections to WUR, AAR, Throttle body, CIS, etc., and last but not least the A/C unit (slid toward the rear for access to intake bolts on cylinder #4.

I went to lift it off the motor and the fuel distributor is hitting the top of the fire wall... exactly what I thought would happen. I'm guessing that i will have to lower the rear of the motor but just making sure there are not any tricks. I could possibly push back the noise/heat shield which had previously been replaced. Looks to be in pretty good working order, maybe I can peel back enough for that extra 1/4 - 1/2 inch of room I need to clear the studs on clylinder #3.

Any suggestions?

PS. And for those of you wondering what I will replace them with, I went with the Turbo Kraft aluminum spacers with shorter phenolic block spacers which sit below them to help dissipate the heat.

Thanks,
Bryan
Old 11-24-2008, 05:01 PM
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My car does not have any engine sound proofing.
And the fuel head comes off fine. Have done so several times. Have you let off the fuel lines from the banjos on the head? You need to remove the 3 &6 banjos (or I do) to get the WUR fitting undone.
Then crack off the unions on the other 4.
I don't think you need to remove the intake flapper box to do the plenum/intake manifold - but you probably have a reason.
What state were the phenolic spacers in?
A trick for young players - when you fit it back up. The gaskets do top and bottom of the spacers. The bottom is simple - the cut out for the injector tells you how to fit them. The topside not so simple.
Flip your manifold over and lay the gasket on it. It fits either way. But one way seals very marginally on the manifold. I just threw them on any which way on the spacers topside. And found to my surprise when I pressure tested my new spacers/gaskets/O rings etc, I still had a hell of a leak. One of the 'flipped' gaskets just missed sealing on the machined face of the manifold - by about 0.5 mm. You can't see tis when you assemble, because the manifold is face down.
Pay attention to this.
Alan
Old 11-24-2008, 05:56 PM
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Alan, I think he wants to take the entire intake/ CIS system off as one piece... not take the fuel head off, and then the intake... ( If I am reading your post right, if not I apologize) I think it would be easier if He just dropped the motor a few inches in the rear, giving him enough room to slide off of the intake studs. All he would have to do is unhook the fuel lines at the injector...and lift it off as one assy.
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Old 11-24-2008, 07:43 PM
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