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While I was driving, everything was fine until.....

Blue smoke started blowing out of the exhaust. I was on my way up (2 hrs) to meet with the Sacramento gang from Fresno. I had to turn around after only an hour of driving.

I was decelleratijng down a hill for quite some time when I looked behind me and the cloud appeared. I then shut off the motor and looked around. Everything was dry. Then, started it back up and it smoked for 30 seconds or less then it was clean. I drove it down the hill to a parking lot and checked the oil (right in between the dots) and then decided to head on another 20 miles. I even punched the throttle in full boost and nothing.

The gentleman behind me said it puffs when I decellarate and sometimes when I'm on the gas. As I was heading home it seemed to be OK as long as I was at a steady speed. An occasional blip on the throttle/turbo and nothing happened.

When I started to get closer to home I noticed that when I was at a stop sign, it would start to smoke a little and then when I would take off, the blue smoke would start up again.

The facts:
1) I just had my exhaust off and the turbo looked great (also, the smoke is not present only under boost and is sparatic at times)
2) Car is bone dry (as I stated, the smoke is coming from the tail-pipe).
3) I think it is one of two things
- Valve guide
- Ring on piston
4) I had a compression test done a few months ago and they were all 2-3% except for #3 was 16%, but the motor had been out of the car for a few days so it was a cold test... we were not able to run it for 30 seconds or so prior to. The mechanic thought the ring may have just been sticking. No symptoms and spark plug looked good.
5) The turbo as stated above (I dont think is the issue due to the symptoms and that I just looked at less than 20 miles ago) is only 10 months old K27S and looks great and works great.

My questions are:
1) How would I know if its a ring or a valve guide?
2) How would I fix either of them? Is the Valve guide easy to fix?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I do not have a problem dropping the motor and taking a look, but I would like to know before I dig in what we think it is.

Thanks,
Bryan

PS. Update, I just started the car after it has been sitting for 20-30 minutes and absolutely no smoke at all from tail pipe. Confusing? Does that rule out a ring and it must be a valve seal/guide?
Old 09-06-2008, 01:14 PM
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Clarification

Remember, this entire thing started while I was decelerating for a while.

I think this means valve guides but could also mean something more serious.. possibly?

Bryan
Old 09-06-2008, 01:47 PM
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Symptoms are the same I had with leaky turbo seals. It will be simple and quick to pull your IC and check the compressor for oil.
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Old 09-06-2008, 02:00 PM
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Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding

Im4Duke,

You were correct (thank God), my IC was coated like crazy with oil residue, and oil moisture.

Two questions,

1) How to fix turbo seals
2) Do I need to do anything with the motor (other than clean out the IC as best I can) from the oil that has gone in?

Thanks,
Bryan
Old 09-06-2008, 02:45 PM
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Bryan, I'm glad it wasn't something more serious.
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Old 09-06-2008, 02:56 PM
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Thanks

Ben, I'm glad as well. Thanks for your comments.

I have sent a message out to Stephen at Imagine Auto to advise me on how/what to fix.

I will await a verdict.

Anyone have some pictures of these things taken apart or what it takes to fix?

Thanks,
Bryan

PS. My IC was caked with oil, like someone sprayed a hose in there.
Old 09-06-2008, 04:04 PM
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Bry, call me asap...but you will need to get the turbo "rebuilt", which includes new seals... shouldn't be more than 500 bucks or so, for the whole thing, providing that the impellers are good and such.....
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Old 09-06-2008, 05:30 PM
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Sorry to have missed you at the Fresno/Sacramento meetup. Get that turbo rebuilt and let's get together. We seem to have a difficult time synchronizing our meetings. It doesn't sound like it's a major malfunction so you should be back in business soon.

Chuck
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Old 09-06-2008, 07:12 PM
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Thanks Chuck

I wish I could have made it. I was about 1/2 way. I'm glad you were at least able to meet Rod. He said your car was spotless.

Thanks for understanding and I will keep you posted on the progress.

Bryan
Old 09-06-2008, 09:47 PM
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Jimculp had a similair failure on his HFS.
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Old 09-07-2008, 06:32 AM
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Bryan, that sucks, I hope you get it taking care of.
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Old 09-07-2008, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
Jimculp had a similair failure on his HFS.
As NathanUK said, I have replaced seals in my K27HFS twice now. This whole thing really comes down to figuring out why the seals are going.

In my case, my EFI tune is toward the rich side of the spectrum. This condition can supposedly produce an "afterburner effect" which heats up the exhaust side of the turbo beyond tolerances and results in the seals heating and failiing. A rich condition can also dilute the viscosity of the oil which would also not help the turbo's efficiency.

The other possible cause could be oil starvation. Be sure that your check valve is operating properly as well as your scavenge pump.
Old 09-09-2008, 11:05 AM
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Thanks

Jim,

I appreciate the feedback. I am currently running stock CIS except for the exhaust (GSF), Turbo (K27S) and IC (Blown 6). I'm not sure how a stock CIS car could change even though I know that comparing the 3LDZ to the K27S is not the correct approach.

Does anyone know the test on how to check if my scavenge pump is sucking at the correct rate? I heard about a glass technique but have no clarification on the topic.

I am waiting to hear from Kevin at Ultimate Motorwerks once he tears down the turbo. He will be able to tell me if it had anything to do with oil starvation or too much.

Thanks again,
Bryan
Old 09-09-2008, 03:45 PM
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I was able to get pictures.

Well, here are 3 pictures of the smog screen that I was throwing.

This was not the largest one by any means, but a good portrayal of the circumstances.

Have fun.







Old 09-09-2008, 05:26 PM
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Before you touch the car, I would contact whoever it is that sold you the turbo or would warranty it and discuss the situation with them. They might work with you on the repair costs considering how soon it needs attention.
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Old 09-09-2008, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
Remember, this entire thing started while I was decelerating for a while.

I think this means valve guides but could also mean something more serious.. possibly?

Bryan
Bryan,
Before we jump on the turbo seal bandwagon, there is one other source of the oil you see in the IC. It could be coming from the oil tank. Take off the rubber elbow tube exiting the metering-plate/fuel-distributor. Look inside the plenum below the metering plate. If you see oil in there, you know the oil is being sucked into the intake. Do you have a breather/oil separator in between the oil tank breather hose and the air cleaner?
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:18 PM
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Clarification

ZAMIRZ,

They said no warranty.. tough or hard to warranty parts which have so many variables which could cause them to fail.

WERK-I

The oil was definitely being sucked into the intake from the Turbo, through the turbo, into the IC and finally in the intake. The turbo smelt like burnt oil.. yuukkk. I do have the full California oil separator system which sits by my passenger side shock tower. The oil smoke you see if not from that. Wouldn't the plenum also show the oil that went through the IC into the intake as well? I'm not sure there would be a way to tell now what happened. Also, the blades on the turbo had quite a bit of play from side to side. Can you elaborate on your theory?

Bryan
Old 09-09-2008, 06:37 PM
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Well, if you have lateral play on the impeller shaft, that pretty much points to the problem......shot turbo bearing.

The theory behind the oil in the CIS plenum is this. If the oil is upstream from the turbo's impeller, the oil is coming from an area related to the intake system. If it is dry in that area, but wet downstream (impeller blades to engine intake ports), the oil contamination is coming from the turbo.

A lot of 930 owners have removed the oil separator that comes from the factory because they don't know what it does. So what they do is run a hose directly from the tank to the backside of the air filter. What happens with this approach is the oil returning to the tank is under pressure and it generates droplets in the air, plus the oil slushing around in the oil tank exacerbates the problem.

It sounds like you did it right and have a good separator as part of your sump system.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It is very strange to hear a KKK lose a bearing. These turbo's are known to go 80K+ miles if cared for properly......regular oil changes, synthetic oil, proper cool down techniques.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:06 PM
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Werk-I

Yes, I agree, I chose to keep the oil separator... just cleaned it up since it had 21 years of oil residue on it. It is important that if you decide to take this off, you need to make sure you vent that tank still. At least if it does build up pressure the oil will come out of the vent rather than into the CIS.

Regarding the turbo (K27S) from Imagine and Ultimate Motorwerks. I know that the stock 3DLZ, KKK or whatever we are calling it is in no way comparable to the K27S, but that turbo has 96,000 miles and the shaft has absolutely no play in any direction. My concern is that the standard turbo could handle if there was an oil issue (starvation or too much) but the K27S cannot.

The car is bone stock except the Turbo, Exhaust and IC. I would think that since the K27S does not need any restrictions or increased oil flow over the standard Turbo.... why did mine go bad so quickly?

Your thoughts are welcomed?

Bryan
Old 09-09-2008, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
This was not the largest one by any means, but a good portrayal of the circumstances.
My co pilot shot these pics from my car...
Here is one pic that was shot right after the last pic below, right after Bryan pulled over and stopped?

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Old 09-10-2008, 12:04 AM
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