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beancounter
 
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LC-1 installed

Man...this thing is the coolest! Anniversary present from my wife.

Its just a part of my "on-board diagnostic system" I also installed a vac/boost guage from NHS in the clock location. On deck for installation is a vdo voltmeter, and a G5 AFR gauge for permanent in-cockpit monitoring of the LC-1 output. I will also probably get the auxbox from innovate in the future so that I can log MAP and RPM along with AFR.

The LC-1 install went pretty smooth. Recently installed a RarlyL8 muffler with a bung, so the sensor was easy. I had to drop the heatshield and cut a notch in it so there was enough clearance for the sensor though. The LC-1 unit is zip-tie mounted on the drivers side, near the fuse panel. I ran the serial cable and the analog outs through the wiring hole for the rear defogger at the drivers side. The calibration button and l.e.d. were mounted on the fuse panel.

Tonight was testing. Plugged in the laptop and voila! I'm logging AFRs!

I'm hoping this will help me track down some driveability issues that I discuss in this post:

Yep, its another CIS thread

AFR log indicated that during steady state cruise with just a small amount of throttle opening, the mixture oscillates into very lean territory (peaks approach 18).



You can see it this in the graph. The first ten seconds is idle. From there until around the 1 minute mark its steady state cruise with just a hair of throttle opening. At 1 minute, I'm going WOT into boost-land (and again at 1:25). My current theory is that I have a minor air leak (at intercooler joints or recirc valve seals). I have new seals to install. I also think my idle AFR is a bit lean, so I plan to fatten it up a bit.

Anyway, the ability to see this data is really amazing...
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:43 PM
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Cool. The resolution is great. Can you post any pics of the install? Did you need to extend the cabling?
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Old 09-09-2008, 06:51 PM
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No pics yet (most of my install work has been at night...poor lighting. I will try to snap some and post them up. I haven't installed the permanent gauge yet, but I did run the cable for it. The stock cables are nowhere near long enough. Exception is the stock serial cable which makes it into the cabin to the front edge of the rear parcel shelf/seat backs. That's plenty long enough for my purpose since I plug the PC interface cable into it and that allows me to place the laptop in the passenger seat. When not in use, the cable end will just hang around on the parcel shelf, or can be "hidden" under the folded rear seat back.
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Old 09-09-2008, 07:08 PM
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Nice graphs. No to rain on your parade but LC-1 or LM-1 without at least RPM logging is not terribly useful tool. AFR graph alone won't tell you much at all.

Most modern engines cut of fuel completely as soon as you lift off the throttle and RPM's are above idle. It saves fuel and gets rid of "popping" sound on overrun. 930 engine has a deceleration valve that is trying to do same thing. So those light throttle AFR peaks might not indicate that you have a leak.

The most important part is actually AFR/MAP vs. RPM. (full throttle run). Car won't ping on trailing throttle. Interesting part is how CIS behaves on full boost vs. RPM.
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Last edited by beepbeep; 09-10-2008 at 01:10 AM..
Old 09-10-2008, 01:03 AM
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On the lm1 you can use the software so the peaks don't look so large which gives a smoother looking graft. . I don't have the lc1, so i don't know if that can be done with it. You will love having all of the data to look @ in any case. I have the clip on rpm adpt. that hooks on a spark plug cable (like a timming lite) that works fine for me and I can use iy in other cars as well. Good luck with your new toys.
Old 09-10-2008, 03:22 AM
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Goran:

Appreciate your comments. As I said, the auxbox is something that I can easily add later to get MAP and RPM. That device is $250 and will be a cake-walk to install so its going to be impossible for me to resist. I fully appreciate that plotting those data points along with AFR gets you the best picture. However, the AFR alone is still very useful IMO. You can't see it on my graph, but I know that I did a 2nd gear pull up to >5000rpm at full boost (.07 bar according to the new mech gauge) and can see how the mixture fattens up on boost and protects my engine from meltdown. Being able to see how the AFR correlates specifically to RPM and MAP would facilitate fine tuning to squeeze out maximum performance. Right now its enough for me to know I am in the ballpark...neither pig rich nor dangerously lean.

Quote:"So those light throttle AFR peaks might not indicate that you have a leak."

Maybe not...but I definitely have something going on there. The car stumbles and misses at light throttle only. If I open the throttle up just a hair more, the stumble/miss goes away. I can "see" this on the AFR readings...there are lean spikes cruising just off idle and then the AFRs settle back down to 14ish and the "spikes" go away when the throttle is opened a little more. I'm putting in the new IC seals and recirc valve seals and we'll see. Stay tuned!

964 T #304:

I can use the "smoothing" feature in logworks too. In this case my graph is "raw."

Bottom line is I am super excited about this tool.
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:15 AM
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I bought LMA-3 (AuxBox) from beginning and never looked back. I found the LM-1 + LMA-3 very useful tool which I used plenty of times.

This is simple graph representing AFR/boost/RPM, sampled when I converted my daily driver to E85:




If RPM is sampled, you can even overlay two different RPM vs. time graphs and see if your mods made car faster (assuming that pull was done in same gear).

You can use RPM derivative or one of acceleration sensors to log torque (which is proportional to acceleration) and thus derive horsepower (by multiplying it with RPM) etc.
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Old 09-10-2008, 09:58 AM
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If you would, please, share with me where you routed the various wires and cables...and how you plan to extend the cable feeding the gauge. I have yet to install my LC-1, saving it for a winter project, but have been collecting "best practises" on the installation. Thanks.
Old 09-10-2008, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beepbeep View Post
You can use RPM derivative or one of acceleration sensors to log torque (which is proportional to acceleration) and thus derive horsepower (by multiplying it with RPM) etc.
I was thinking that this type of calculation becomes possible with the accelerometer feature of the auxbox. Does innovate include instructions on how to calculate HP with the auxbox documentation? If not, I would be interested if you would share the formula.
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
I was thinking that this type of calculation becomes possible with the accelerometer feature of the auxbox. Does innovate include instructions on how to calculate HP with the auxbox documentation? If not, I would be interested if you would share the formula.
I never bothered to calculate HP. I used accelerometers to maximize the HP. But exact number was of less interest. But it shouldn't be too complicated to calculate HP as long as you know vehicle mass and can live with approximation of aerodynamic drag and rolling resistance.

1g = 9,81m/s^2
1W=1J/s
1kW = 1.36hp


But more simply put: you can fiddle with boost/ignition timing/AFR etc. until the area under product of RPM and accelleration is maximized between the runs (=maximum area under power curve).

When you know it's maximized, you can do a dyno run and get bragging paper
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:44 PM
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That is really nice control around lambda 1. I have been using the LC-1 for a couple of years now, without problems, as part of my EFI setup. Is your stock sensor still plugged in to the CIS (or was yours an earlier car without it)?

One thing I noticed is that really lean spikes can correspond to a misfire on one cylinder, so keep that in mind.

I noticed too that you have installed yours at the muffler inlet, which is what the instructions say to do. I have been running mine in the stock sensor location, which is not the best under boost. I should really get to moving it. I still have the sensor bung that came with it.
Old 09-10-2008, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark houghton View Post
If you would, please, share with me where you routed the various wires and cables...and how you plan to extend the cable feeding the gauge. I have yet to install my LC-1, saving it for a winter project, but have been collecting "best practises" on the installation. Thanks.
No problem. I found your thread over on Rennlist about this very subject. Not sure if I've followed "best practices" but I can say that my install works well and looks clean. Certain details of your install will depend on the location of the O2 sensor bung. In my case, the sensor bung is just a few inches after the turbo. Seems that some people say this won't work for long, and others say its just fine. Mine is working fine, and time will tell how the sensor holds up there. This is where Ben @ M&K and Brian (aka RarlyL8) have put the bung on my muffler, and I trust these guys to have the experience to know what works and what doesn't.

The first trick was to route the wire from the sensor to the LC-1 unit. I wanted to mount the LC-1 unit inside the engine compartment. I routed the sensor wire around the outside of the engine tin. There is plenty of room for the wire between the tin and the body, but there isn't enough clearance for either the sensor, or the plug to fit through. I supported the engine with a floor jack, then loosened the two engine mount bolts on either side of the compartment, and carefully lowered the engine just enough to get the clearance needed to pass the sensor through the gap (only a cm or two).

In the engine compartment, the LC-1 unit needs a switched 12v source, and a good grounding point. Best place seems to be the fuse/relay panel on the drivers side. There is a ground point behind the fuel filter and accumlator. This is tied by a ground strap to the back of the fuse/relay panel. I located a switched 12v source going to one of the relays which I believe is the ignition delay relay according to this thread:

Ignition Noise with key out?

Good pics of the area in question there too. In order to access the wiring to the relay, I unbolted the panel completely from the body. This is when I noticed the ground strap which I decided would be my central ground point for the LC-1. The fuse/relay panel in my car has a 3 fuse block, of which only one fuse was being used (unfortunately an unswitched 12v source, so not correct for the LC-1). I spliced into the switched 12v source at the relay, and routed a wire over to an empty 5A fuse in the fuse block, which is where the LC-1 is now connected.

The LC-1's two ground wires, and the calibration wire all are ideally supposed to be attached to a central ground point (with the calibration wire having a momentary switched wired btw it and the ground). For this purpose, I ran a jumper wire (14ga marine grade) with a ring terminal at the end which is ganged up with the ground strap at the back of the fuse/relay panel (secured by one of the panel mounting bolts). Finally, I drilled small holes in the panel cover for the calibration switch and indicator LED. These could be mounted in the cockpit if you wanted to run the wires up there. I decided to follow another Pelican's LC-1 install thread who mounted these items in the panel.

With the calibration switch and LED in the engine compartment, I only needed to run the serial cable and the analog outs into the cockpit. For the analog outs, I had some shielded wire laying around with outer insulation and two separately insulated inner wires of similar size to the LC-1 (20 or 22ga I think). I soldered this wire to the LC-1 analog outs in the engine compartment, then routed both this wire and the serial line through the rear deck where the defogger wires go. Based on my research, this is the most painless route into the cabin. In the engine compartment, the hole is on the driver's side, just above the fuel filter. The hole is too tight to pass the serial cable plug-end through, so you must cut it off then re-solder once you've passed the end into the cabin.

In my '79, the entire rear parcelshelf/backrest is one piece. Four phillips head screws and the whole thing comes out (crappy little speakers and all). You can easily pull the wires in this way, then tuck them in the corner. For the analog out wire, I continued by tucking the wire underneath the side panel (the one that covers the front seat belt inertia reel. I had to do a little prying and tweaking of this panel to get the clearance to shove the wire in and make it disappear, but it did not need to be removed. This will get you to the back edge of the driver's door sill. Next I removed the sill trim and peeled up the carpet a bit and tucked the wire in there. Now you're at the front edge of the door sill and from here its easy to get to the dash or center console, wherever you intend to mount the gauge.

Works for me.
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedy Squirrel View Post
That is really nice control around lambda 1. I have been using the LC-1 for a couple of years now, without problems, as part of my EFI setup. Is your stock sensor still plugged in to the CIS (or was yours an earlier car without it)?

One thing I noticed is that really lean spikes can correspond to a misfire on one cylinder, so keep that in mind.

I noticed too that you have installed yours at the muffler inlet, which is what the instructions say to do. I have been running mine in the stock sensor location, which is not the best under boost. I should really get to moving it. I still have the sensor bung that came with it.
No electronic brains in my '79. Its an open loop system... I'm curious about misfires causing a lean condition. I guess my gut instinct is that a misfire = unburnt fuel = rich. If my current mission to replace seals in the IC and recirc valve don't clear up my off-idle drivability issue, then I will probably be looking at the dizzy next.
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Old 09-10-2008, 06:25 PM
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pictures

Here are some photos of the install

LC-1 mounted in the engine compartment:

Calibration button and LED

Serial cable

analog wire routed under door sill (before final routing to gauge)

new gauge panel (voltmeter and afr)

new gauge panel and new mech vac/boost gauge in clock location
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Old 09-21-2008, 06:40 PM
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[QUOTE=jwasbury;4193896]Here are some photos of the install
QUOTE]

Thanks for showing us the details. I am just about to do almost the same installation on my car and it will save me some time frigging around looking for the best route.
Bill
Old 09-21-2008, 10:30 PM
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I too am thinking I would mount the gauge where the ashtray is. Nice, neat job.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

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Old 09-22-2008, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwasbury View Post
No electronic brains in my '79. Its an open loop system... I'm curious about misfires causing a lean condition. I guess my gut instinct is that a misfire = unburnt fuel = rich. If my current mission to replace seals in the IC and recirc valve don't clear up my off-idle drivability issue, then I will probably be looking at the dizzy next.
I've been experiening similar very lean spikes at moderate in-town steady cruising speeds, at least until she's really good and warmed up. Enough to where I can just barely feel the power dipping off when my gauge shows momentary lean (on my narrow band AFR; still haven't yet hooked up the LM-!). The more I work this around in my mind, the more I've come to think that it's either a partially plugged injector or a partially fouled plug. Anyway, when no or weak ignition occurs, yes there's all this raw fuel just lying there. But, your AFR sensor is actually reading the oxygen content, so with all that oxygen also sitting there... which would normally be depleted during combustion...it will read as a lean condition on the AFR gauge. That's just my backyard mechanic logic speaking.
Old 09-22-2008, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark houghton View Post
when no or weak ignition occurs, yes there's all this raw fuel just lying there. But, your AFR sensor is actually reading the oxygen content, so with all that oxygen also sitting there... which would normally be depleted during combustion...it will read as a lean condition on the AFR gauge. That's just my backyard mechanic logic speaking.
That makes sense to me. But, what happens if the unburnt fuel ignites when it hits the hot turbo? What will that do to an AFR reading?

Yep, I worry way too much...
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 09-22-2008, 12:00 PM
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The question is.....IS it igniting when it hits the turbo? I would expect something like glorious flames of fire belching out the tail pipe if that were to occur. And even if it did ignite, I would suppose that it would be a rather poor combustion (not being under any compression at all), and would read on the AFR as still somewhat lean (not all the oxygen consumed). All this supposition is dragging me back to my early 70's college chemistry courses, far too long ago to have any validity.
My guess, with my little problem, is that I'm getting something like "incomplete" combustion, vs. none at all, due to weak spark and/or injector in one cylinder.
Old 09-22-2008, 01:02 PM
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Mark,

your "backyard mechanic" explanation of how a misfire could lead to an indicated lean condition makes pretty good sense to me, and jives with a discussion I had with one of the techs at the indy shop I use when I'm over my DIY head. BTW, I replaced the intercooler seals and the BOV seals and still have the same light throttle miss. I've richened it up with the mixture screw and that seems to help (but doesn't eliminate it), which seems to point to fueling as the problem. Based on my extensive (read obsessive) research here on the PP turbo forum, I am now looking at the injectors. Pulled them off last night and will try to conduct my own cleaning and testing (as posted in a thread by billjam). I'll report back on the results.
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Old 09-22-2008, 01:07 PM
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