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Cynical Misanthrope
 
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A couple pics of my rebuild & EFI progress!



Yuk. This was a month ago. I am SO glad to be done with that despicable part.



This (x6 and x12, the rest are in boxes) represents this weekend's work. My compressor, die grinder, Dremel, drill press, and assorted attachments are probably as tired as my fingers, arms and shoulders. As are my neighbors from hearing those tools running hours straight.
The intake ports still need to be bored for the (undecided) intake. The exhaust valve guides are junk (89k miles), and my seats and guides need to be R&R'd.
The bottom end, even the rings are golden so at most I'll be putting in JE 8:1s in the stock jugs.

It's high time I share with you guys my evolving plans. I've been harvesting TONS of info from here, I may have worn out the Search button. Thank you to all who's shoulders I stand upon! Some of you can relate, I don't have much cabbage ($$$) to spend on this, but I do have some mechanical experience, patience, and a viscous passion to learn. It just occurred to me my car will be summoned to the smog-nazi in January... and I don't know what I'm going to do yet. Prob'ly Non-Op it, or slap the CIS back on if I've reversed the socket wrenches by Dec.
Long-term goal is Carrera intake EFI w/ GT35R. ECU is undecided; I'm attracted to MSII, though I wish they'd release the Sequencer as my goal is a clean, tractable street car. Other options include the very polarizing TEC3r, or maybe my local and respected Audi 20v experts at 034. They make a very powerful and relatively affordable 8-plug + 8-injector box.
964 cams and ARP hardware are purchased.
Twin-plug is undecided, arguable whether it helps on a non-domed piston.
Still digging for a <$2,500 solution to a LWFW (that's crazy)

I'll go stick my nose back in Wayne's, Bruce's, and Adrian's books now!
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 09-14-2008, 09:59 PM
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That sounds nice, man. I say, go ahead w/ your EFI dream while you are here, don't risk failing smog w/ ported heads, cams, CIS etc.

Forget twin plug considering your goals, your right about the dome, look at a 993TT any twin plug there? nope. ( it does have knock sensors though)

It'll save you a ton of money and simplify the process though

TEC3 is not a bad choice. You could then simply mount a NA clubsport flywheel and use your existing crank sensor and bracket to trigger the TEC3. Change the sensor aligmnet parameter from 11 to 15 in the advanced settings menu though!!!! This will save you the expense of modifying your crank pulley, and keep your crank sensor away from the heat soak from the turbo.

Although I like those 034 guys, I wish I could afford to turn them loose on my Audi

I can help you tie in the wiring under the seat, I know more about those stupid plugs than I ever wanted too. You can tie in your tach signal, fuel pump relay trigger, etc there. That may be a no-brainer for you, please don't be insulted. I just like what you're doing, and hope to do the very same oneday.

Good luck! Keep up the good work.
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Old 09-15-2008, 08:43 AM
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Cynical Misanthrope
 
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Thanks for the words of encouragement Mike. I had the exact same thoughts on the flywheel; take a LWFW and clutch from a 993tt since I need a 60-2 rather than the 3-tooth ring anyway. On the 965 there's NO room to mount a pulley ring, either between the pulley and block, or between the pulley and motor mount. So either I CUT the reluctor teeth into the pulley or I use the right flywheel.
Thank you on the wiring offer, I'm grateful not insulted. I will take you up on it when I get there.
My feelings about 034 go back to my Audi days, and I wish I could say my personal experience of them was positive. I helped a friend R&R his UrS6 head, and we had 034 hot tank some parts. Suffice it to say I got more done in 5min with my pressure washer than their 2hrs shop labor charge.
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 09-15-2008, 09:01 AM
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I had ported heads and 3.2 intake and Tec3r on my '85 930. It made great power but even after trying 3 different shops it was never reliable or capable of passing emissions. Everyone seemed to think the Tec3r was the problem. I never found out for sure. I got frustrated and sold it. The EFI cost me more than the engine rebuild on that car.

With EFI I would suggest finding an expert that can show you a few cars they have done. I'd use whatever ECU they know the best. One's experience with a particular ECU is more valuable that the ECU itself.

However, I would love to follow someone building a great EFI engine using the MegaSquirt system.
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Kirk
Crashed: Silver 1992 Turbo S2
Sold: '86 930 minor mods; '94 3.6 Turbo; '85 Euro 930 (3.2 Intake, Tec3r EFI, TwinPlug, Garrett Turbo, JE 8.1 Pistons, 505 rwhp)
Old 09-15-2008, 09:24 AM
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Cynical Misanthrope
 
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I researched your case extensively. I'd love to hear more about what you feel was successful, and what you feel wasn't, about your EFI.
I'm surprised a fully sequential package couldn't smog.
If you're willing to, please email me (92c2turbo at gmail dot com), I'd sincerely appreciate a dialog with you.
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 09-15-2008, 09:36 AM
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I'll send email right away.
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Kirk
Crashed: Silver 1992 Turbo S2
Sold: '86 930 minor mods; '94 3.6 Turbo; '85 Euro 930 (3.2 Intake, Tec3r EFI, TwinPlug, Garrett Turbo, JE 8.1 Pistons, 505 rwhp)
Old 09-15-2008, 09:40 AM
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How do you plan to get around the visual inspection for smog?
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Old 09-15-2008, 05:13 PM
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Cynical Misanthrope
 
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I plan to reinstall CIS for the inspection. Thanks California Air Resources Board, thanks that I will spend thousands of dollars and hours making my engine run cleaner and more efficient, but will have to reinstall the federalized CIS ***** every two years.
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 09-15-2008, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFM744 View Post
I plan to reinstall CIS for the inspection. Thanks California Air Resources Board, thanks that I will spend thousands of dollars and hours making my engine run cleaner and more efficient, but will have to reinstall the federalized CIS ***** every two years.
Wow that really sucks!! Why don't you look into registering it somewhere else?? I could register it in NH for you. Easier than going through that hassle every couple of years..
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Old 09-15-2008, 07:55 PM
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Cynical Misanthrope
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9dreizig View Post
...registering it somewhere else?? Easier than going through that hassle every couple of years..
It's a thought. I could "sell" it to my mom in Santa Fe, keep it registered in the Land of Enchantment. Though that seems like more hassle, i.e. family-politics, than just swapping over the induction every 2yrs. Hell, I hate doing valve adjustments with the motor in so I already budget an annual motor drop!
Yeah it won't be a schoolnight job to swap over, but part of the agenda on this conversion is to keep it simple, clean, inconspicuous (if that can be said for a Turbo). So unless a CHP, inspector or otherwise knows the 3.3 motor, a peek under the bonnet won't raise any eyebrows. The 49-state'ers can have their red-anodized, finned billet fuel rails.
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 09-16-2008, 08:08 AM
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If you can find a place that does not have emissions inspections and does not have a personal property tax you could get a business license in that location and register the car to the business.
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Kirk
Crashed: Silver 1992 Turbo S2
Sold: '86 930 minor mods; '94 3.6 Turbo; '85 Euro 930 (3.2 Intake, Tec3r EFI, TwinPlug, Garrett Turbo, JE 8.1 Pistons, 505 rwhp)
Old 09-16-2008, 09:04 AM
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I have always wanted to make a completely stock looking Efi turbo motor. I think the best way to keep it "stock appearing" is to use a full 3.2 plenum and rails. Maybe have anything attached to them powder-coated flat black to give it that "stock porsche" appearance.
The thing that is so stupid about the emissions laws is that the 930 will likely run cleaner (if tuned correctly) under part throttle and get better gas mileage with EFI. Gov tests are only concerned with part throttle emissions, they do not care about full throttle. So why should our fun be hindered???
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Old 09-18-2008, 06:58 AM
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Your heads look good, did you do the dome polishing and the port clean-up yourself? Did you do any valve seat work? I sent my heads to Competition Engineering after talking to Walt; I liked his approach.

Here is a shot of the progress I've made so far. Today or tomorrow I will tackle the crud on the engine.


92C2, do you have the CAT or CAT bypass? I am contemplating the removal of the air injection system and I need to plug my CAT bypass. It looks like a 14mm external compression fitting. I bought the head plugs, and I wonder if the cap shown in the Pelican drawing, 930-113-153-00, is the part I need?

You mentioned ARP hardware, are you using their exhaust studs or exhaust pipe bolts? I was a bit shocked at the prices, but once the parts are in your hands, it seems worthwhile.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:09 AM
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Cynical Misanthrope
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucittm View Post
Your heads look good, did you do the dome polishing and the port clean-up yourself? Did you do any valve seat work?
I did the head work myself (the decision-making of a man with more time, energy and OCD than money). This consisted of sculpting, slimming and knifing the intake guide island, coarse-grinding and sculpting flow paths in the bowl, carefully blending short-side radius, polishing the last 10mm. On the exhaust I just ground and polished everything. I left as much metal around the guides as possible as they run hot enough already. Do I think my work will yield 10 horsepower? No, but it made me feel like I was a "toonah yo!". The exhaust guides need R&R, and I'll farm this out along with regrinding seats and valves.
Your pistons sure have a lot less crud on them than mine. I suspect my exhaust guides were leaking oil pretty bad, but I think my combustion chamber carbon accumulation was due to my crazy-rich midrange overfueling. I should've done the old water-induction trick or Seafoam before teardown to try and blow some of that out.
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 09-18-2008, 09:40 AM
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11.05 update

After MONTHS of busying myself with exciting tasks like sandblasting/painting the tins, R&R'ing the steering rack, scrubbing cosmoline off the trailing arms, and stripping/refinishing the wheels and brake calipers...

I FINALLY got to start putting things together last night!

Ted Robinson (German Precision) was extraordinarily helpful, generous, and funny while replacing the exhaust guides, cutting the seats, twin-plugging, and boring the intakes to 38mm. He then personally DELIVERED the heads to my house Monday night.
Last night I hosed down the the crank with another can of cleaner and installed the rods with the ARP bolts. (turning wrenches the OTHER way = )
Thanks to Les Garten for his absurdly over-photographed build (http://www.lesgarten.com/pix/porsche/) to validate that the rod ID numbers all face UP. I was careful to ID each part as I disassembled, but I had not made note of this orientation, crucial since I'm reusing bearings.

Yes I need to post more pics, but everyone here's seen a crank assembly. When I start putting on stuff I've made pretty, like the fan, valve covers and such I'll post some pr0n.
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 11-05-2008, 08:52 AM
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It's a 914 ...
 
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Quote:
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since I'm reusing bearings.
Cool project. Just curious why you'd reuse rod bearings ... seems risky. I thought the plain shell bearing took a "squish" as you torque the rod bolts, and that you weren't supposed to reuse the bearings ... maybe I'm wrong though?

Scott
Old 11-05-2008, 02:50 PM
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Bearings were all tip-top, and Ted gave me the thumps-up to reuse. Frankly there was no reason to go beyond the heads on this engine except to put in the ARP rod bolts.
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X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 11-05-2008, 03:50 PM
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wooaahhh , please more pics !
Old 11-05-2008, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AFM744 View Post
Thanks to Les Garten for his absurdly over-photographed build (http://www.lesgarten.com/pix/porsche/) to validate that the rod ID numbers all face UP. I was careful to ID each part as I disassembled, but I had not made note of this orientation, crucial since I'm reusing bearings.
Don't mention it!
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---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 11-05-2008, 07:29 PM
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Jon,
Here is an update on the LWF. I drove the car for a few hours this week. The clutch was strong. I had better pedal than before with just the right amount of pre-engagement play and let off with no dragging at full extension. I think that was partly due to bleeding the clutch master and slave with new ATE Racing Blue brake fluid using the pressure bleeder and partly due to the new pressure plate. The parts setup from Patrick Motorsports was great. Everything dropped into place and just plain worked.

The LWF was not as different as I was expecting. I never stalled it although I could feel it was a bit more sensitive. Maybe it was just me being hyper aware.

One thing for sure, the revs came much faster and dropped off much faster. I found that I have to blip the throttle if I want to do a quick shift. Otherwise, the revs drop and it makes for a sloppy engine/trans syncronization. I didn't take it past 4000 rpm, since I want the new rings to aclimate to the slightly worn cylinders. But I could feel the car want to build rpm faster than before with the DMF. Kind of like how the SR-71 wants to go a little higher above 85,000 AGL.

I have one minor drip and it may seal itself and no smoke. I had two droplets at the bottom of the power steering pump bracket. It has to be that seal in the bracket or the o-ring between the bracket and the cam tower. The o-ring was very tight and I don't think I tore it, but the seal was very soft and I might have pushed a lip backwards going in. I'll wait and see how it goes. I know the rubber swells a bit when oil hits it.

I still hit the overboost sensor twice. The first time was a suprise and the second time just to confirm. I was not on it too hard and, as i said, below 4000 rpm. Maybe a finge benefit of the LWF? I may have to check my wastegate. Have you tested yours yet? Let me know what pressure it lifts at and which spring you are using. I will try a test with my leakdown tester and see what I get. I believe I am using a .8 bar spring but I don't have a boost gauge yet so I don't know what my new K27 is pushing.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:42 PM
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