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Moving from the Hypothetical to the Practical...motor now cooked

Well I finally blew it up...that leaky ring now is the "missing ring" and compression just pumps into the oil tank.
So now to really get down to brass tacks on what to do. I have floated this out there and gotten some opinions from this forum in the past. Just like when i did the major suspension overhaul I really like to get all the input I can and then pull the trigger and order everything neded in one felt swoop. So far my plan has been to go to keep CIS, 3.4 P/Cs, cams(964 or SC), big port heads, K27 HF variant, some more fuel, for about 400 wheel

I already have everything in my signature installed and have Euro fuel lines, opened up fuel injector blocks and matched injectors waiting.

My mechanic wet to his machinist/engine guru yesterday and they came up with a new spin as follows:

Keep CIS
3.3 OEM P/Cs
Open up existing heads
Flow everything real nice
Twin plug heads
Crank fire
Cams (regrind, 964 or SC)
Bump compression a little
Stroke motor to 3.4

Machinist says we should get 470-480chp + depending on turbo selection. now I am one to always be a lil' different and I kind of like this approach. Benefits or negatives, comments welcome and appreciated.
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1987 930 - K27 7200 / DAS Full Cage / Blownsix Intercooler / BB Headers / Zork Tube / Tial 46mm / Adjustable WUR / RPM Activated Solenoid / Open Element Air Intake / Smart Racing 27mm Sways / 24 and 33mm Torsion Bars / Adj. Spring Plates / Wevo Strut Brace / Monoballs / Tow Hooks / Oil Cooler Scoop / Brey Krauss Harness Truss / Race Seats / XD-16 AFR Guage/ 17" Kodiak Racing Whees and Nitto NT-01 255/315s

Last edited by F350Lawman; 09-21-2008 at 07:59 AM..
Old 09-21-2008, 07:31 AM
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My motor is an EFI 3.4 stroker just like what your mechanic suggested with OEM 3.3 P&Cs. Good torque for street driving with that 3.6 crank. You also get a half point of compression by using the stock rod length with the 3.6 crank.

My suggestion would be to do both the P&Cs/pistons and the 3.6 crank for a killer CIS motor. I would do LN Engineering cylinders/JE 98mm pistons (I dont know for sure but I believe 7.5:1 JEs and the 3.6 crank with stock rod length gives 8:1 effective compression?), stock rods (with ARP bolts - you arent revving past 7k so you dont need Carillos) and that 964 cam. With a good turbo and portwork that combination should be good for 450whp and have awesome off boost performance too. If you think you might go to EFI someday, do Carillo rods too. Send the heads to Xtreme down in Florida - I had another well known 930 tuner do my heads and they did a bad job so now I will have to spend twice to get them done right

Sounds like a great project have fun
Old 09-21-2008, 07:53 AM
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Think about it this way. If you just built the motor stockish, bump the compression to 8-8.5:1 You can do this both with a set of Mahle 3.4 P&C's or go with a more robust combination and do JB cylinders and J&E pistons these will probably give you the most strength and insurance and add the 964 cams. For the heads, if you stay CIS then you chould stay with your heads and rework them (I am getting to the point soon). If you go EFI you can simply swap them for a set of 3.2 Carrera heads and literally not touch them except for a fresh valve job. I'm gonna hear a bunch of CRAP for that one. Which brings me to the topic of EFI............................................... .................................................. ....
OK..... The change can be or will be a fustrating one, especially listening to many self claimed gurus out there. Funny thing, it isn't all that hard of a decision to pick a reliable and ease of use EFI system. But for some this is their Mt. Everest. Reguardless of their short comings the change alone without any HP added to the equation will make the car drive completely different. Drivebility and response will be night and day, and will give you the flexability to increase power far more easier in the future. Yes you can make the 400HP mark with CIS but, you still have heat soak problems on the track due to the required turbine housings to work with CIS. And poor low speed drivability in comparision to EFI.
Then if you need to replace the turbo go with a GT series Garrett, possibly a GT35R or if you stay CIS the K27HF, as it works best with CIS.

So this would be a good build and again it is just an opinion for your wallet.

Mahle or JB cylinders and J&E pistons 3.4 8-8.5:1 compression
Carrera heads twin plugged
964 or GT2 EVO cams or even 993 Super Sport cams
Carrera intake manifold or convert your 930 to accept fuel rails
C2 intercooler or larger
Garrett GT35R (K27HF for CIS)
YOUR choice of EFI
55lbs or 72lbs injectors if you don't want more than 400 the go with the 55's

And really since you were planning on spending the money for a crank triggered ignition for a little more money this would get you the EF system that would have this very system incorporated into it. This combo would give you phenominal performance and a huge performance threshold.
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Old 09-21-2008, 08:33 AM
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I think you should investigate all of the relatively cost effective ways of going to EFI before you do this build EVEN if you choose to stick with CIS because god forbid you wish later on you had went with EFI.

I am intrigued by the ACCEL DFI products that are out there. They have a 911 specific distributor and they sell fuel rails, ect. Seems to be a easy set up to use.

Also, just using a carrera 3.2 manifold opens up a new world for you in terms of EFI add on capability.

And if you really decide to stick with CIS, you will still have a nice car I am sure.
Old 09-21-2008, 08:56 AM
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I forgot to mention turbo selection - that K27 7200 will have to go. Consider upgrading to a Garrett GT35r ball bearing unit (a good choice in case you go EFI later and great response for a 400-450whp CIS motor). A lot of guys on this forum use the GT30r for super quick spoolup but that turbo only flows 500hp (flywheel hp) so it would be pretty much maxed out for your application. The GT35r is pretty reasonably priced (about $1400) and you can probably Ebay your current turbo for a few hundred $$.
Old 09-21-2008, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT2EvoGuy View Post
I forgot to mention turbo selection - that K27 7200 will have to go. Consider upgrading to a Garrett GT35r ball bearing unit (a good choice in case you go EFI later and great response for a 400-450whp CIS motor). A lot of guys on this forum use the GT30r for super quick spoolup but that turbo only flows 500hp (flywheel hp) so it would be pretty much maxed out for your application. The GT35r is pretty reasonably priced (about $1400) and you can probably Ebay your current turbo for a few hundred $$.
I agree, Garrett must be considered...
Old 09-21-2008, 12:16 PM
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I also don't understand why you want to buy a new crank when you don't need a new one.
You need a P&C set so why not go with the 3.4 set that also gives 8.0CR iirc rather than buying a stock set and a crank.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
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1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
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Old 09-21-2008, 02:28 PM
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I do agree with Nathan on this one...if your crank is not damaged, why get a different one? BUT, if it is damaged, I would rather see you keep your stock 3.3L crank as it is fully counterweighted, unlike the 3.6L crank, as it does not jhave the full counter weights. If your crank is toast, why not send it to a shop and have it offset ground, use Pauter ( or any aftermarket high quality) rods... (2 inch Chevy journal), which would take it to a 78.8 mm stroke. Couple that with 98mm, P&C's, and you will be right at 3.6L.... but stroked more than the factory 3.6L, which equates to more torque.


I would be careful raising the C/R more than .5 on a CIS car... ( def not more than 8.0 to 1 total).. and if you stay with stock rods..replace the bolts with ARP stuff. If you really dont want to go with aftermarket P&C's, why not try to find some C2 style cyls, which are fully finned?.. I mean if you are in there, why not?
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Old 09-21-2008, 09:49 PM
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Why the hell would anyone keep the existing 3.3 P&C size when doing a complete rebuild?
Fully finned baby.........3.4. 3.4 will also net you 8:1 - highly recommend this CR.

And with everything else you ahve planned, the 78/79 SC heads make an additional 20 HP - sure sounds like your build matches mine. ;-)

Don't scrimp.

This way you may be ready for EFI down the road, too.
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Old 09-22-2008, 09:27 AM
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P.S. > the 3.4 comment is directed to F350's mechanic, not to other posts here -
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
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Old 09-22-2008, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS View Post
Why the hell would anyone keep the existing 3.3 P&C size when doing a complete rebuild?
Yep, and he ain't keeping them, he's going to have to buy them!
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

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Old 09-22-2008, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT2EvoGuy View Post
My motor is an EFI 3.4 stroker just like what your mechanic suggested with OEM 3.3 P&Cs. Good torque for street driving with that 3.6 crank. You also get a half point of compression by using the stock rod length with the 3.6 crank.

My suggestion would be to do both the P&Cs/pistons and the 3.6 crank for a killer CIS motor. I would do LN Engineering cylinders/JE 98mm pistons (I dont know for sure but I believe 7.5:1 JEs and the 3.6 crank with stock rod length gives 8:1 effective compression?), stock rods (with ARP bolts - you arent revving past 7k so you dont need Carillos) and that 964 cam. With a good turbo and portwork that combination should be good for 450whp and have awesome off boost performance too. If you think you might go to EFI someday, do Carillo rods too. Send the heads to Xtreme down in Florida - I had another well known 930 tuner do my heads and they did a bad job so now I will have to spend twice to get them done right

Sounds like a great project have fun
Could you elaborate on Xtreme in FL.? Who are they?
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:28 PM
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IMNSHO, keeping the stock 930 heads on this build is a waste.
Meaning: Get the 79/79 SC heads - these are much better than anyone can get from carving on the 930 heads -
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:36 PM
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Hey Les!
Extreme Cylinder Heads in Stuart FL. Bill is the man when it comes to Porsche cylinder heads.
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJF View Post
Hey Les!
Extreme Cylinder Heads in Stuart FL. Bill is the man when it comes to Porsche cylinder heads.
Thanx for that! I hadn't heard of them.
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:48 PM
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Good point Craig, I didn't think about the early SC heads instead of reworked 930 heads. This would definetly be a upgrade if you stay CIS or go EFI. But If you do go directly EFI the 84-89 3.2 heads would extend your performance further. But on the same note if you stayed with CIS I would not recommend 3.2 heads.
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:51 PM
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Contact Steve Weiner, he can give the reasons why SC heads - if I recall correctly - are a better choice for EFI than the 3.2 heads.
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Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 09-22-2008, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F350Lawman View Post
So far my plan has been to go to keep CIS, 3.4 P/Cs, cams(964 or SC), big port heads, K27 HF variant, some more fuel, for about 400 wheel

My mechanic wet to his machinist/engine guru yesterday and they came up with a new spin as follows:

Keep CIS
3.3 OEM P/Cs
Open up existing heads
Flow everything real nice
Twin plug heads
Crank fire
Cams (regrind, 964 or SC)
Bump compression a little
Stroke motor to 3.4

Machinist says we should get 470-480chp + depending on turbo selection. now I am one to always be a lil' different and I kind of like this approach. Benefits or negatives, comments welcome and appreciated.
When you're going to do this much work, keeping CIS is like putting lipstick on a pig.

Ditch the CIS and get an EFI system that your mechanic knows and tunes.
3.3 OEM cylinders - not only no way, but to f'ing way
Open up existing heads - I did and can't find a problem with it (saved money too)
Flow everything real nice - not sure what that means
Twin plug - yes
Crank fire - EFI
Cams - call Neil Harvey for ideas on a custom grind for your build
Bump compression - again, see GJF's post
Stroke motor - GJF again

Turbo - GT35r is hard to beat. I've been running mine for a couple of years now without center section cooling.

My opinions are based on, "been there, done that".
Old 09-22-2008, 05:24 PM
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Thanx for that! I hadn't heard of them.
next town north...
http://www.xtremecylinderheads.com/
Old 09-22-2008, 05:42 PM
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SC better than 3.2 for EFI??? From all the flow results I have, I have to disagree.
Craig always enjoy your input and in no way is this a attemt to start any kind of pissing contest.
But.... I speak from years of experience and not just mine. Countless hours of flowbench work and dyno trial and error.
The only thing I can see the SC heads do different is a LITTLE more low speed velocity under .100 lift, after that a 3.2 head will walk away from it.
I will leave it at this, reguarless of what is said here flow bench results are the only result F350lawman needs to go by. And choose what will fit his wants. It is important for him to keep his goals straight and not get the bigger is better syndrome and waste his money on un-needed modifications that won't gain him results he really didn't want in the first place.
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Old 09-22-2008, 06:13 PM
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