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x98boardwell's Avatar
 
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WUR, AAR (no power at plugs)

I have searched but cannot seem to find the answer.

I am trying to find out when the WUR and AAR should have power. Should they be hot all the time as long as the ignition is in the "run" position, or should the fuel pumps be running before these have power?

Also, the little green plug behind the CIS unit that tells my fuel pumps to turn on has only 10.4 volts when the ignition is on.

1) Are these things normal?
2) Where does the WUR and AAR get their power from (besides the battery and the wiring harness) meaning is there a fuse associated with them or what pin on the engine harness plug would control them?
3) What should the proper voltage be to the green plug (sorry, don't know the correct name) behind the CIS as stated above?

Thanks for your help in advance,

Bryan
Old 09-27-2008, 02:13 PM
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The devices are powered along with the fuel pumps. You do have a 930 IIRC? Add your car to your signature.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

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Old 09-27-2008, 02:29 PM
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My Bad

Nathan,

Normally I would include my model... I own an 87-930 with a B6 IC, K27S and GSF Headers. Other than that, the car is mostly stock.

The car has been running bad when cold and I was told to verify that the WUR has 12 volts to it. My IC is currently out of the car so the sensors that are normally on the IC are not currently plugged in.

Do I need to have something else on/running other than the key in the ignition to have power the the AAR and WUR and is the voltage to the green plug behind the CIS sufficient at approximately 10.4 volts?

If power should be to the AAR and WUR where is this supplied. What pin on the engine harness plug can I use to verify and is there a fuse along with these... kind of confusing and I cannot seem to find the answer when I search.

Thanks,
Old 09-27-2008, 03:06 PM
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By turning the ignition to "on", this will energize the WUR. It is independent of anything else. If you do not have power, you'll need to trace the wires back. Remember, look for the simplest solution first - blown fuse, broken wire at connector (at the WUR - this is where mine broke), poor connection at the 14 pin connector (could be old and falling apart too), engine ground loose, etc. Most likely, its not in the wiring harness.
Old 09-27-2008, 03:13 PM
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Thanks

Don,

Thanks, that is a start. Per our discussion a few weeks ago I was able to check the voltage today. And of course no power. Shouldn't the AAR valve sitting just in front of the WUR also have power when the ignition is in the "on" position?

If so, then maybe it is at the 14 pin connector (of course I will chase it everywhere). Does someone have a drawing/schematic on the connector where it would show which one is for these parts? I imagine the WUR and AAR are tied to the same wire/pin as they are right next to each other.

Lastly, can anyone verify what amount of voltage is appropriate for the green plug behind the CIS?

Bryan
Old 09-27-2008, 03:23 PM
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Here is a thread that shows the 14 pin diagram:

Wiring diagram needed - '81 14 pin connector on relay side

Do a search on 14 pin connector and you'll find tons of info.
Old 09-27-2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
Don,


Lastly, can anyone verify what amount of voltage is appropriate for the green plug behind the CIS?

Bryan
Seems I remember that this is just a ground for the fuel pump system. The idea is that if there is a roll-over, a microswitch in the metering assembly will trip and cut off the fuel pumps reducing the possibility of fire. Unplugged, the fuel pumps run continuously.
Old 09-27-2008, 04:07 PM
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Answers

Don,

I have power (around 10 volts) to this plug. Would your statement above mean that there should be no power?

Also, what is this diagram? Is this the 14 pin plug or the plug that goes to the Permatex? Is an 78-930 different from my 87-930?

Old 09-27-2008, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
Don,

I have power (around 10 volts) to this plug. Would your statement above mean that there should be no power?

Also, what is this diagram? Is this the 14 pin plug or the plug that goes to the Permatex? Is an 78-930 different from my 87-930?

Don't know if the 78 930 14-pin engine wiring harness is the same as your 87.
To test harness, separate the plug, check continuity from pin 10 to both the WUR and AAR plugs. No continuity, broken wire. If ok, wire in harness is ok.
Turn ignition on, test for 12V on socket 1/2 of 14-pin plug. If no voltage, fuse, broken wire or possibly another fail safe power disconnect?
Don E. knows his stuff but just to assure yourself the fuel pump shut off microswitch on the top of the CIS isn't serving to disconnect +12V to pumps and the WUR/AAR, pull that green plug on the back/top of the CIS, re-check for 12V
If you are getting a 10V measurement it may be a wee bit low batt. Long runs of 16awg wire can really attenuate voltage signals. Test battery voltage at the battery posts to see where you are.
Old 09-27-2008, 09:15 PM
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Far from an expert here, but I seem to remember reading somewhere on this board that the WUR and AAR get power from the same relay as the fuel pumps. If that were not the case, they would begin to heat even before the engine was running, and leaving the ignition in the on position for a few minutes before starting could put these devices into "run" mode while the engine was still cold.
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Old 09-28-2008, 05:27 AM
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When power is applied the following are innervated:
- Cold Start Valve
- Thermo Time Switch

When the engine turns the following are innervated:
- Control Relay
- Fuel Pump(s)
- AAR/AAV
- WUR

One thing to check in the series are the thermo-time switches. If one is stuck open or not receiving power then nothing it controls will receive power.
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Old 09-28-2008, 07:34 AM
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Qusion

Brian,

Where is the thermal switch or switches located? Do you have a picture by chance of what they look like?

Thanks,
Bryan
Old 09-28-2008, 09:32 AM
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Updates

This is what I have been able to do.

1) I checked the continuity of the wires for the AAR and WUR switches.
2) Checked to see if I had power to the wires while the engine was turning over even after i verified that my fuel pumps would come on if I wanted them to. I did this to make sure that no cut-off switch would have been the problem of the power issue.
3) Checked the #10 pin on the 14 connectors anchor point to see if there was power to the pin itself... no power even when turning over the motor.

Question: Is there a relay associated with the devices or is just power and thats it. All of the boost relays are new and working correctly. I'm trying to figure out if it could be a simple fuse/relay of some sort.

4) I looked in the mechanics manuals to see if I could find any fuses/relays associated with this system and could not.
5) I checked to make sure the thermal switches had wires going to them, but I could not verify if they had power or not.


I'm at a loss. Do I need to trace back before the 14-pin connector to see why there is no power to pin #10? There is a varying degree of volts to the other pins in the plug ranging from 5-12.2 volts. Not sure if it is a simple 1-wire issue or something larger.

Advice... thoughts on where to go next? Thanks for all the help so far. Looking to continue this fight if possible.

Bryan
Old 09-28-2008, 11:52 AM
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All good advice except you mentioned you removed your IC... Don't forget that for the fuel pumps to come on the overboost switch must be earthed.

I have no idea about the voltage at the green plug as it's not something that should need to be tested.

EDIT: Just to add, on my euro car the L/H thermotime switch is disconnected and like Spuggys car my 930 had no problems, including starting from cold.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 09-28-2008 at 01:41 PM..
Old 09-28-2008, 01:34 PM
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I figured it out

Nathan,

As mentioned above, I took care of all of the relays so that my fuel pumps would think everything was connected so that could not have been it, but I appreciate the input.

I FOUND THE PROBLEM, but still need help to answer a question.

I looked through the wiring schematic to see where the #10 pin gets it's power. It was the rear fuel pump power supply that suppled that wire. so I figured that the fuel pump must be actually running to be able to supply power to the #10 pin and eventually the WUR and AAR.

I removed the plug behind the CIS so that the pumps would run continuously while I checked the wire and abra-cadabra I have power to both plugs.

Now for the problem, there was only 10.6 volts to each plug when I checked them. Is this because the car was not running and the fuel pumps were taking the juice from the battery so not to worry until I check while the car is running or could there be another issue. All of the wires looked good during the continuity testing even the one to the fuel pump so we should be ok, correct?

Lastly, I cracked the sleeve that holds all of the wired pins for the connector (not the actual connector)... how do I find one of those?

Thanks for all your help. Once I get the turbo back we can see what actually is going on.

Bryan
Old 09-28-2008, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
Now for the problem, there was only 10.6 volts to each plug when I checked them. Is this because the car was not running and the fuel pumps were taking the juice from the battery so not to worry until I check while the car is running or could there be another issue. All of the wires looked good during the continuity testing even the one to the fuel pump so we should be ok, correct?
Correct, you will get close to 12V when engine is running, alternator is feeding current.
Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
Lastly, I cracked the sleeve that holds all of the wired pins for the connector (not the actual connector)... how do I find one of those?
Wrecking yard or someone on forum with an old 14-pin. Otherwise, buy the complete assembly from Porsche or import auto supply house. About $40 from memory.
The sleeve is critical as it forces the pins and sockets into the main connector housing so the two stay mated.
Old 09-28-2008, 02:25 PM
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Chris

How is the car running? Have you resolved the rough running issue yet? Was it the fuel dist.? What happen to your old WUR when you bought the new one? Where did you get the new one from.

Hope you have things figured out.

Thanks for the help earlier.

Bryan
Old 09-28-2008, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x98boardwell View Post
How is the car running? Have you resolved the rough running issue yet? Was it the fuel dist.? What happen to your old WUR when you bought the new one? Where did you get the new one from.

Hope you have things figured out.

Thanks for the help earlier.

Bryan
Car is running at about 80% of ability. Problem was the fuel head. Engine ran the same with the old/stock WUR and the a DWUR. Specifically, AFR's all over the place, unstable, non-repeatable, engine stumbling bad to worse depending I believe on how many liberal democrats were on the street at any given time. Only time it ran really well was at WOT.
Rebuilt fuel head resolved driveability issue in spades. Remaining issues are 1) once the DWUR's 90-second warm-up cycle/pressure regulation time expires, not rich enough for about another minute. 2) When throttle opening/load drives engine to about 8-psi boost, the engine goes pig rich (low 9's) and spark gets blown out. As boost builds, (or I ease off the throttle a bit) AFR leans to high 11's going to 12.2 to rev limit, all hell breaks lose (a good thing).
I'll keep the stock/good WUR as a backup.
The "beauty" of the DWUR is the ability to set it's control pressure at every 250 rpm increment from 750 to 6750 simultaneously with every manifold pressure from 0.4-bar to 2.2-bar absolute. Thus, AFR can be optimized for practically every rpm/load situation from WOT up a steep hill, cruising on the flat or decelerating.
I'm presently running the rpm/control pressure tables downloaded for the 930 engine from the Unwired Tools website.
Dyno this week to adjust DWUR for AFR and see how much power this little car can develop
Old 09-28-2008, 03:31 PM
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Where did you get the new one (Digi-WUR) from? Bryan
From one of the best, Chris Carroll, Turbokraft, Mesa, AZ 602-481-0264
Old 09-28-2008, 03:36 PM
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There are 2 thermo-time switches on most stock 930s. One is located above the distributor on the end of the BOV housing (under the left front of the intercooler). The other is located in the front cam housing cover.
If you unplug the thermo-time switch, as I have on my car, nothing unusual will happen and the other devices will operate normally. If the thermo-time switch malfunctions in the "open" position, which is not the default and therefore unusual, then the controlled devices go dead. You can check this very simply by unplugging the thermo-time switch in question and testing the other devices.
It sounds like everything is working so all is well, yes?

What is/was the problem you are chasing? Cold start issue?
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Old 09-28-2008, 03:54 PM
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