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Nonstarting 930

Hi Guys, need some help diagnosing a problem with my 87 930...
Problem first started after a short drive, went around a corner, tried to accelerate slowly and the car died. Starter cranks but would not fire. I waited a while and it started right up and ran great. Pump relays and the fuse were all fine. I blamed it on bad gas, until it happened again. Both times dying only a couple blocks from home, then restarting eventually.

I had initially thought this was a fuel pump issue since I noticed the I no longer had the rather loud whine my front pump would make before i started the engine. I found my single fuse for the fuel pumps running VERY hot, so i performed the dual fuse upgrade.

Unfortunately the car left me on the side of the highway soon after. At speed with steady throttle it began sputtering then died with a big backfire. This time it would not restart at all.

I can smell gas at the exhaust after cranking, which has made me question whether this is a pump issue. My CDI box whines like normal. My next step would be replacing the yellow overboost relay. Any ideas?
Thanks!


Last edited by Phil Gilsdorf; 10-14-2008 at 05:31 AM..
Old 10-13-2008, 06:43 PM
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Doug Siegel
 
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I had to replace the white wire that goes to the overboost sensor. It somehow lost continuity. Since then the wire is grounded elsewhere. I'm guessing this isn't the problem.

I also did the fuse remedy after blowing lots of fuses.

How many miles on the car?
Have you been running it regularly?
Fouled plugs? Too rich?
AFR's?
timing?
vac hose tangled in throttle?
CIS sensor plate not open enough?
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:16 PM
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I have the same issue with mine(87 930) It dies in the midle off nowhere at Sebring. And got tow back to the Hotel , I figure I going to get a lot off help since there was a lot off PCA member there. When I crank the Car I also smell some fuel on the exhaust, I figure it was not a fuel pump problem, I figure it was not getting spark.
I trailer the Car back home to Naples and when I tried it it start right up, but still died out after a short distance. I replace the Coil it has a sign the coil (bosch)was leaking oil. But no luck still died after it warm up. Then I replace the CDI unit from Perma Tech, Bosch CDI was around 1100 or more It lasted maybe about 2 years and It burn the Perma Tech CDI unit as well, so being stuburn I replace with another Perma Tech CDI unit till Just before I move to Orlando I order another CDI (Perma Tech) unit just to have as spare.The Part store ask me weather or not I have replace the Coil from Perma Tech.I still using the Bosch Coil.
According to to him I should have replace the Coil from Perma Tech as well that is why the car is eating CDI unit.
I replace the Coil now. I have Perma Tech CDI unit and PermaTech Coil and so far I have no problem drove the car from Naples to Orlando with no problem.
The only diff between Bosch CDI and Perma tech CDI is, Bosch CDI turn the fuel pump for a few second when you turn the key to Start and Perma Tech doesn't. Just have to crank a bit longer before it fire.
PS I also notice with the Bosch CDI if hear the whine noise off the fuel pump the car will Fire, and if I don't hear the whine noise the Car will not Fire it keep Cranking.
I hope this help I just telling you what I experience with mine


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Old 10-14-2008, 03:51 AM
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70,00 miles, I drive it every weekend, plugs are fine, not sure about AFR, timing is fine, nothing tangled, not sure about the CIS plate.

This cropped up out of of nowhere, the car was running great prior to this issue.

Thanks Bud thats good info, I may have to go with a new CDI and Coil, but what throws me off is the fact that the CDI unit whines like normal and i no longer have the very loud whine from the front pump before i start.
Old 10-14-2008, 05:02 AM
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My car would die out under hard accelaration at 3500 rpm . I found a fuel pump relay that the cover jist sliped off when i pulled it out out of socket holder . There was a white powder film inside cover. Replaced relay no problems now
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Old 10-14-2008, 05:16 AM
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Pull your overboost relay, the one that shuts off the fuel pumps in an over boost situation (most often the yellow relay at the left rear fuse location). If the relay is bad or if the plug contacts are dirty, the car will either die mysteriously or not start at all.
I've had my '87 do this to me twice....failure to start up after driving. Both times I simply unplugged the relay, kinda wiped the contacts, plugger her back in, and off we went. Since then I've cleaned the plug and prongs, and so far no recurring issues.
Just takes a second to try this. Who knows, it might be that simple.
Old 10-14-2008, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Gilsdorf View Post
Hi Guys, need some help diagnosing a problem with my 87 930...
Problem first started after a short drive, went around a corner, tried to accelerate slowly and the car died. Starter cranks but would not fire. I waited a while and it started right up and ran great. Pump relays and the fuse were all fine. I blamed it on bad gas, until it happened again. Both times dying only a couple blocks from home, then restarting eventually.

I had initially thought this was a fuel pump issue since I noticed the I no longer had the rather loud whine my front pump would make before i started the engine. I found my single fuse for the fuel pumps running VERY hot, so i performed the dual fuse upgrade.

Unfortunately the car left me on the side of the highway soon after. At speed with steady throttle it began sputtering then died with a big backfire. This time it would not restart at all.

I can smell gas at the exhaust after cranking, which has made me question whether this is a pump issue. My CDI box whines like normal. My next step would be replacing the yellow overboost relay. Any ideas?
Thanks!
I suspect your front fuel pump. They are usually the first to go and get very noisy before their demise. When these fuel pump motors seize up, the amperage goes up causing the relays to get very hot along with their fuses. They don't short circuit because they have carbon brushes and the resistance of the windings in the circuit of the motor.
The first place I would check is your fuel system pressure. Pull the green plug over by the metering plate and turn the ignition on. DO NOT TOUCH OR OPEN THE METERING PLATE AS THIS WILL FLOOD THE ENGINE. Listen up front by the front wheels and check if you can hear the front fuel pump whine. It shouldn't be loud or chatter.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 10-14-2008, 11:04 AM
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I had a similar problem but maybe a bit different, but this is what I learned.

I had an intermittant start problem. Sometimes it started then sometimes it did not.

Mine was the speed relay that is only on the 87 through 89 930s. This is the yellow relay in the back that allows the ignition to function for 3 to 5 seconds after the car is shut down to burn off the fuel. My would stick so that there was no ignition signal at times during start up.

I also had the permatune cdi. These do not whine like the bosch oem so dont expect to hear anything. This may sound simple, but if your car is not starting and you smell fuel, pull the wire from the coil and see if you are getting spark. If not you can trace it back to ignition and not fuel. You can also remove the cdi and do your own diagnostic to see if it is with in spec. (this is on the permatune web site)
Old 10-14-2008, 12:46 PM
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To expand on what tfulmer1 is saying check out my thread on the ignition delay relay. The power supply to the CDI is controlled by this relay. In particular, read bullet #3 in post #10.

Ignition Noise with key out?
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Old 10-14-2008, 03:38 PM
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These resistances should help

At the CDI connector with it unplugged

Coax to dizzy (green cable) is 570 inner to outer wire.
Brown to White (coil primary) is .7

Coil secondary (coil HT to either + or -) is 649

At the CDI box

31/1 to 31d is 0 (closed circuit)
31d to 15 is 672
31d to TD will charge briefly and then go to infinity (open circuit)
31/1 to TD also charges briefly and then goes to infinity (open circuit)

My CDI is a 930.602.702.00
Bosch number 0 227 300 004
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-15-2008, 11:33 AM
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On the yellow relay....

I would remove the jacket of the yellow relay and inspect the solder welds from the spade tabs to the PCB ....if it looks like there is a darkesh halo around the solder it has cracked and can lose conductivity.. I re-soldered mine after it was suggested by another board member. so look closer at your relay.
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Old 10-15-2008, 03:53 PM
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Here are my readings in bold:
Coax to dizzy (green cable) is 570 inner to outer wire. 615
Brown to White (coil primary) is .7 .7
Coil secondary (coil HT to either + or -) is 649 685
31/1 to 31d is 0 (closed circuit) .2
31d to 15 is 672 66.9
31d to TD will charge briefly and then go to infinity (open circuit) yes
31/1 to TD also charges briefly and then goes to infinity (open circuit) open but does not charge briefly

I removed the coil plug but did not see a spark when cranking. I jumpered pin 30 and L on the ignition delay relay plug, the cdi whined but no start. I opened the yellow overboost relay, resoldered, but still no start.

As for the suggestion to pull the green wire by the metering pump, I have no clue where that is.

Thanks for the help guys, any suggestions, or interpretations of the readings above?
Old 10-18-2008, 04:33 PM
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Trouble Shooting List - No Start

Probably time to start at the beginning of the trouble shooting process.....In the porsche manual page 28-6 outlines an ignition trouble shooting process.

underlined and italic is text from the manual, other text is my $0.02. If yes to each step then proceed to the next step if NO then follow to step (No.) or(direction)

1. connect a spark plug to the coil wire, set gap to 12mm and check for spark. Make sure you ground out the spark plug properly when checking for spark. (8)
2. check distributor cap, distributor rotor, ignition lines and spark plugs. Resistance of ignintion line including plug: 4 kohms. resistance of distributor rotor: 5 kohms. Spark from spark plug? (repair high voltage end)
3. check ignition timing. Timing correct? (adjust timing)
4. check fuel system. Engine receiving sufficient fuel? (repair fuel system)
5. Check ignition transformer (coil). Disconnect plug and high voltage wire at coil. Between coil primary (terminal A and B): 0.1 to 0.165 ohms. Between coil secondary (terminal 4 and A): 390 to 630 ohms. Resistance correct? (replace coil)
6. check wires and plugs or ignition system (CDI control unit, ignition/starter switch, distributor, ignition transformer, tachometer) for tightness and oxidation. Everything correct? (eliminate defects)
7. For ignition failure: disconnect tachometer. If ignition failure is gone, the tachometer has a defect. If not, the tachometer is good. Ignition failure eliminated? (replace control unit) control unit is the CDI box. Someone in an earlier post mentioned something about a diode in the tachometer....step 7 proves that there is something in the tach that could fail
8. disconnect wire plugs at air flow sensor contact or bridge terminals 30 and 87 on the base of the relay for fuel pump II. Check voltage at disconnected control unit plug between terminals 6 and 8 with the ignition on. The voltage must be equal to the battery voltage. (eliminate break in supply line) This is where my manual must be missing some update sheets. The picture of the CDI plug shows 8 pins and my 88 930 only has 6 pins on the CDI plug. So I'm not sure between which pins I should be finding 12V.
9. Check sensor resistance including sensor line at disconnected control unit plug between terminals 3 and 7. resitance: 490 to 700 ohms. Resistance correct? (repeat test at two-pole plug in sensor line)
10. check ground of sensor coil including sensor line at disconnected control unit plug between terminal 3 and car's ground and terminal 7 and car's ground. Test value correct: repair or replace wires between plug and CDI control unit. Test values incorrect: replace distributor. Resistance infinite? (repeat test at 2-pole plug in sensor line)
11. check sensor system for mechanical damage. Visual inspection: is there clearance between the rotor and stator? Sensor system good? (replace distributor)
12. Disconnect tachometer. If there's an ignition spark now, the tachometer is defective. Tachometer good? (replace tachometer)
13. continue at point 5

Good luck!
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Old 10-18-2008, 10:53 PM
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31d to 15 is 672 66.9 *I'll check that I got that reading right for you, maybe you can recheck yours again to confirm you haven't got the decimal point wrong, maybe I did too*

31/1 to TD also charges briefly and then goes to infinity (open circuit) open but does not charge briefly *Mine certainly did have a resistance and then went to infinity* I think this is your problem, think of the name CDI capacitive discharge ignition, sound as though a capacitor has gone wrong.


Do the above that Dan mentions but it would appear your CDI is probably faulty.
You can get them repaired or go with an MSD6AL.


The lead you need to unplug to get the pumps to run with the ignition on goes to the green connector at the bottom left of this picture.

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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 10-19-2008 at 12:01 PM..
Old 10-19-2008, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
Mine certainly did have a resistance and then went to infinity* I think this is your problem, think of the name CDI capacitive discharge ignition, sound as though a capacitor has gone wrong.
Sorry, no. When you apply any DC voltage to a capacitor, it initially acts as a low resistance circuit and then goes to infinity. Any kind of meter, analog or digital, applies a very small voltage across the circuit being measured to determine its resistance. Ohm's Law for DC..... R=V/I. Inductors have opposite characteristics when DC Voltage is applied then. Infinity then to winding resistance value. I not saying that this test point where the resistance measurement is incorrect, but it does not point to a bad capacitor.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 10-19-2008, 12:51 PM
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Found the metering safety switch green plug on the back. With this pulled and the ignition on, I can clearly hear the front pump running, but this was the first i've heard it in a while.

Tested the Coil...
Primary was .6
Secondary was 672

31d to 15 reading was actually 669 which is pretty close to 672.

So with only the one test, 31/1 to TD, varying from Nathan's spec, my CD could be bad. But the most likely culprit is the Coil with both the primary and secondary being outside the norm.

I'm ordering a new coil and CD tomorrow, but the one question that i have in the back of my head is why i never hear the front pump when i turn the ignition. Also, when the car died a couple blocks from home i cranked the starter with the transmission in gear to get up a hill. After doing this for a while the front fuel pump started running all the sudden and the car fired up. Maybe I'll order a new front pump too...
Old 10-19-2008, 06:51 PM
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Hmmm...sounds like you still haven't had much luck narrowing it down. Bummer.

Have you checked the inside of your distributor cap? Look for cracks and carbon tracking inside. Check the rotor for cracks....if you haven't done that already, that is.

Do you have a spare spark plug laying around? If you do, take one of the plug leads off the engine and plug it into the spare spark plug. If you have a test lead with alligator clips on both ends, clip one end to the threads of the spark plug and the other end to chassis ground. Have someone turn the engine over while you observe the plug to see if you can see an arc jumping the plug gap. DO NOT HOLD UNTO THE PLUG WHILE YOU'RE DOING THIS!
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 10-19-2008, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
Sorry, no. When you apply any DC voltage to a capacitor, it initially acts as a low resistance circuit and then goes to infinity. Any kind of meter, analog or digital, applies a very small voltage across the circuit being measured to determine its resistance. Ohm's Law for DC..... R=V/I. Inductors have opposite characteristics when DC Voltage is applied then. Infinity then to winding resistance value. I not saying that this test point where the resistance measurement is incorrect, but it does not point to a bad capacitor.
I have to admit with the low cost of capacitors I always replace them with a new one. I have a stock of various different sizes (uF's) so it's no big deal for me. They can also change shape which is a give away of failure.

Is there any other way to test them apart from substitution?

As for the CDI, do you think this is an indication of a failed unit?
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg
Old 10-20-2008, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Gilsdorf View Post
So with only the one test, 31/1 to TD, varying from Nathan's spec, my CD could be bad. But the most likely culprit is the Coil with both the primary and secondary being outside the norm.

I'm ordering a new coil and CD tomorrow, but the one question that i have in the back of my head is why i never hear the front pump when i turn the ignition. Also, when the car died a couple blocks from home i cranked the starter with the transmission in gear to get up a hill. After doing this for a while the front fuel pump started running all the sudden and the car fired up. Maybe I'll order a new front pump too...
Why do you think your coil is out of spec? Your readings are similair to mine and my coil was fine!
EDIT: just checked Dans post. Strange, my car ran fine!

The fuel pumps will only turn on when air is pulled through the metering plate. I doubt you'll hear the pumps while your cranking the engine.
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1981 UK 930. G50/01 shortened, 964 3.8RS Fibreglass Body Kit, 18" Alloys 8.5" F & 10" R, 225's F & 285's R, Special Colour Metallic Blue Paint, FIA Sparco Evo's, A/C and Air Pump removed, Electronic Boost Controller, GHL Headers, Tial46 WG.
Fitting - New service kit.
Needs Fitting - Innovate XD-16 Kit, Kokeln IC. Stephen's K27 HFS, EVO Intake Assy & his Modded USA Fuel Head.

1983 UK 911 3.2 Carrera Sport Coupe. Black, Black Leather with Red Piping, Black Alloy Gear Knob, K&N Air Filter Element, Turbo Tie rods.
Needs Fitting - K&N CO Sensor, Round A/F Dial Gauge, Factory Short Shift Kit.

http://www.danasoft.com/sig/Iamnotanumber.jpg

Last edited by NathanUK; 10-20-2008 at 10:57 AM..
Old 10-20-2008, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanUK View Post
Is there any other way to test them apart from substitution?
As for the CDI, do you think this is an indication of a failed unit?
There is really no way to test them without the proper equipment. HV Oscilloscope (in circuit) and or capacitor test equipment(out of circuit). Capacitors tend to leak when they age, that is, lose their voltage capacity because of leakage across the dialectic. I'm not saying the CDI is good or bad.....just that testing a circuit with improper testing equipment may or may not give the desired results.

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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 10-20-2008, 11:17 AM
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