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I love big V-8s and don't really have anything against the power produced...per liter or what not. It is the "usability" of the power that counts, it is the overall package that counts. I am pretty sure I could take any number of import performance cars, stuff an nice aluminum block V-8 in there and actually increase the on track performance quite a bit. My problem is with the rest of the system that makes the nice V-8 less enjoyable than it should be in many U.S. autos.

This is coming from a (prior to 2006) U.S. auto only guy
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1987 930 - K27 7200 / DAS Full Cage / Blownsix Intercooler / BB Headers / Zork Tube / Tial 46mm / Adjustable WUR / RPM Activated Solenoid / Open Element Air Intake / Smart Racing 27mm Sways / 24 and 33mm Torsion Bars / Adj. Spring Plates / Wevo Strut Brace / Monoballs / Tow Hooks / Oil Cooler Scoop / Brey Krauss Harness Truss / Race Seats / XD-16 AFR Guage/ 17" Kodiak Racing Whees and Nitto NT-01 255/315s
Old 10-27-2008, 05:37 PM
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I test drove an 08 ZO6 this summer. I would say that it is a very comfortable sports car. It did not make me want to own one. I have not driven a 930, but have been a passenger in wcc's and that did make me want a 930.
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Pillay View Post
I test drove an 08 ZO6 this summer. I would say that it is a very comfortable sports car. It did not make me want to own one. I have not driven a 930, but have been a passenger in wcc's and that did make me want a 930.
I have never liked the actual feeling and connection from the rear of American muscle cars.

They feel so damn loose.

Ironically, my 930 rear feels much more stable than any of the American muscle cars I have owned or driven.
Old 10-28-2008, 11:24 AM
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I remember coming home from a game in Ann Arbor, back when we actually had a winning team, I was merging at a high rate of speed and this clown in a Z06 was closing and not appearing to yield, I down shifted smoked the tires in third and belched a huge flame when I lifted. My wife later asked me to slow down and all the Vette pilot could do was muster a grin and thumbs up when he caught up, I was thinking yeah, you know I just violated you.
Old 10-28-2008, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by schnele View Post
i remember coming home from a game in ann arbor, back when we actually had a winning team, i was merging at a high rate of speed and this clown in a z06 was closing and not appearing to yield, i down shifted smoked the tires in third and belched a huge flame when i lifted. My wife later asked me to slow down and all the vette pilot could do was muster a grin and thumbs up when he caught up, i was thinking yeah, you know i just violated you.
owned!!!!!!
Old 10-28-2008, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCHNELE View Post
I remember coming home from a game in Ann Arbor, back when we actually had a winning team, I was merging at a high rate of speed and this clown in a Z06 was closing and not appearing to yield, I down shifted smoked the tires in third and belched a huge flame when I lifted. My wife later asked me to slow down and all the Vette pilot could do was muster a grin and thumbs up when he caught up, I was thinking yeah, you know I just violated you.
What are the mods in your 930, does not sound like stock? To smoke tires in 3rd gear on highway is pretty impressive.

Love it or hate it, the Z06 is not something to take lightly....they are quick and good around the track.

Fredmeister
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:16 AM
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I love my 930 but...................A stock 930 is a MUCH lower performing car than a new vette in any objective contest of speed or performance. Of course that is comparing a 30 year old car to a new one. I hate to go here but the truth is a new Cobalt SS is likely faster than a stock 930 in most contests of speed and handling.

I am not a gm fanboy or anything, but I think you guys are a bit sentimental and biased here. Comparing a stock car to a modded one will never make much sense. A stock regular corvette is fast as hell and handles fantastically. They only get faster from there: z51, z06, zr1. The sad news for porsche is that a new vette is faster than a carrera and a new z06 performs as well as a new turbo.


Honestly I think you guys just dont like them because they are everywhere.
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:33 AM
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I agree the stock Vette is MUCh faster, there have been great strides in 30 years. This true only for the 2 guys who have stock 930s .

On the PERFORMANCE handling aspect, the non Z0-6 was no better than my 930 when it was stock. Of course the Vette did have a more comfortable ride, but that means zero to me when I choose the 930 over riding in my other cars.

Vette = better street car for all around purposes
930 = more fun on and off the track

PERIOD
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1987 930 - K27 7200 / DAS Full Cage / Blownsix Intercooler / BB Headers / Zork Tube / Tial 46mm / Adjustable WUR / RPM Activated Solenoid / Open Element Air Intake / Smart Racing 27mm Sways / 24 and 33mm Torsion Bars / Adj. Spring Plates / Wevo Strut Brace / Monoballs / Tow Hooks / Oil Cooler Scoop / Brey Krauss Harness Truss / Race Seats / XD-16 AFR Guage/ 17" Kodiak Racing Whees and Nitto NT-01 255/315s

Last edited by F350Lawman; 10-30-2008 at 10:48 AM..
Old 10-30-2008, 10:44 AM
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Take a stock vette (hell get an auto, convertble, softest suspension model) and a stock 930 (with modern tires but period correct size) to an autocross, and tell me which one handles better. You will be multiple seconds faster in the vette on a 60 second course.....
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:48 AM
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At the time this occured it was a mere Ruf BTR conversion putting 413lb/ft to the ground at .9 bar now it is putting down 561lb/ft of torque to the ground finally getting it right after about 60k in engine development alone.
Old 10-30-2008, 11:27 AM
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Any questions? Even though a Viper ACR has more torque it doesn't match my traction, I am a Jeep Chrysler Dodge dealer. I don't hate the Corvette or Viper for that matter, they pay my bills however I love my 930

The engine is stroked to yield a displacement of 3.5l the list below is the big picture but a lot more went into the car.

Project Type 930/1987 model/ 37343 miles
Engine
3.6 RSA crank and stock oil pump, etc.
Case boat tailed
Pauter rods
Mahle3.4L Cylinders custom JE pistons: 8:1compression
Cylinders and heads ported with custom head work, 964 style head gaskets
930 heads ported with stock valve sizes, but smaller sodium filled 993 valves.
Valves back cut for flow improvements along with some more secret headwork
Imagine Auto billet upper and lower valve covers
Twin plug with 12 Bosch FR5DTC Super Plugs
Performance Development valve springs and titanium retainers
GT2 Evo custom grind cams
Carrera 3.2 liter intake manifold Extruded and honed
Wilson 70mm throttle body
Custom billet fuel rails
Edelbrock pressure regulator
Siemens injectors 72lb/hr
Full bay intercooler from Bell intercoolers (Don Enderlein’s design)
B&B Headers (retained)
Fabspeed Dual out exhaust
Limit Engineering Garrett ceramic ball bearing turbo GT37CR
Tial BOV, Wastegate
MoTeC M600 with Data logging
Denso 580 coil near plug coils
Motec switch on the fly boost controller with hidden Valet
Kennedy Engineered Products Pressure Plate/ Porsche Motorsport clutch
Carbon Fiber engine shroud (not that you can see it because of the massive intercooler)
Custom Gauges, tach swings from six o’clock with voltmeter and 200mph speedo

Transmission
Custom G50/50 Patrick Motorsports with Guard Chromoly LSD, Porsche Motorsport steel synchros and sleeve assembly WEVO G50 shifter.

Suspension
I have upgraded to an RSR coilover setup and Wevo Camber king setup with the strut brace tube.
Braking and Running Gear
The car presently has Big Reds all around and 17” Ruf classics (17x8.5 and 17x 10 with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups).
Safety
Full Matter Roll cage and fire suppression is onboard. Bi-xenon H4s, Recaro Sport Toplines in suede and leather.
Miscellaneous
I have to have a soundtrack so, McIntosh head unit and amplifier sound system with ADS speakers and JL sub, Griffiths and Performance Aire AC, Custom gauges and an Alcantera Ruf steering wheel, aero mirrors.

Last edited by SCHNELE; 10-30-2008 at 11:54 AM..
Old 10-30-2008, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F350Lawman View Post
930 = more fun on and off the track
PERIOD
More fun perhaps, but slower.........................PERIOD

If we are allowed mods to the 930 I am bringing the corvette c6R as my bench racer. I am the first to admit that there is much more to a car than numbers. Hell my elise is pretty slow but a blast to drive. But numbers are numbers and by them a vette is faster in everyway, espescially handeling; to a comparably prepared 930.

I still choose the 930 though becaus its cool
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:41 AM
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Autocross, isn't really the thing that a 930 shines at, stock or modified, IMHO. I am sure a stock Vette would be quicker than a stock 930 on most any course. That said...after driving the 2, I don't know how anyone couldn't agree that the 930 feels much better. "Handling" in this case isn't a scientific thing...it's feel, and the 930 just feels much better and suits my driving style. When you do things right the 930 things just seems to "click". The Vette always felt good but never provided any magic.
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1987 930 - K27 7200 / DAS Full Cage / Blownsix Intercooler / BB Headers / Zork Tube / Tial 46mm / Adjustable WUR / RPM Activated Solenoid / Open Element Air Intake / Smart Racing 27mm Sways / 24 and 33mm Torsion Bars / Adj. Spring Plates / Wevo Strut Brace / Monoballs / Tow Hooks / Oil Cooler Scoop / Brey Krauss Harness Truss / Race Seats / XD-16 AFR Guage/ 17" Kodiak Racing Whees and Nitto NT-01 255/315s

Last edited by F350Lawman; 10-30-2008 at 12:53 PM..
Old 10-30-2008, 12:51 PM
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Aschen- if you like those pieces of crap so much then buy one. I have worked on all generations of vette and know without question that they are not even close to Porsche in any respect accept some straight line numbers and being able to fit a person that weighs 350+lbs and have A/C to cool them. Real world handling of a vette is not good- ask me how I know...
I respect you more than the next Vette guy because you have a 930.

I could have bought a C5 or a C6 for the amount that I got in my car and I still know that I have a much better automobile. I am a red-blooded American like anyone else, but what it comes down to is that we have no business building a super-car at any price or any speed. The Vette is the pinnacle of "accounting engineering." And the close second is the Viper- which I just worked on a totaled one (stripped off all of the mods) and I saw first hand that there is nothing to either of the "American bruisers." All plastic crap draped over a crappy, ill designed frame.
I don't care if Chevy or Chrysler put out 1000 horsepower cars for $20,000- you still get what you pay for- And the proof is all over that neither of these companies can build a car. Both companies are on the verge of non-existence due to poor quality while Porsche is thriving.
Not to say that Porsche builds its new cars like the 930 was, but its still a $hitload better quality than any 10 corvettes.
I'm sorry to rant and rave, but to see such mediocrity of design considered in the same sentence as Porsche makes me sick to my stomach.
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:08 PM
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I own a 930 instead of a vette because I think its cooler. I am however objective and realistic about performance. Again some facts:

Corvette ZR1 is faster than any production porsche ever with the possible exception of the carrera GT (and thats debatable). By fast I mean a road course not a drag strip..

Super Stock Autocross, is dominated by porsche gt3s, corvette Zo6, and lotus elise's. With all of them being fairly competitive against each other. These are basically stock crs in the most handling intensive test of performance there is.

Z06 optioned vette, is 65k 500hp, has massive brakes, is made largely from aluminum and carbon fiber, has titanium connecting rods, dry sump, and weighs about the same as a regular 911. It is faster in a strait line than 95% of the modded 930 on this board and faster than 99% of them on any kind of road course. Stock for stock it is an order of magnitude faster in any concievable way. I would have a better chance of beating mike Phelps in a swimming race than the 930 would have against a zo6.

Quality is hard to quantify but cost of owning and tracking a vette is less than a comparable porsche.

Stock for stock an 930 is faster and the better car than a vette of similar vintage.

Come on guys, dont make it hard to defend porsche owners on other car boards. Blind marque snobbery is bad stuff...
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by aschen View Post
I own a 930 instead of a vette because I think its cooler. I am however objective and realistic about performance. Again some facts:

Corvette ZR1 is faster than any production porsche ever with the possible exception of the carrera GT (and thats debatable). By fast I mean a road course not a drag strip..

Super Stock Autocross, is dominated by porsche gt3s, corvette Zo6, and lotus elise's. With all of them being fairly competitive against each other. These are basically stock crs in the most handling intensive test of performance there is.

Z06 optioned vette, is 65k 500hp, has massive brakes, is made largely from aluminum and carbon fiber, has titanium connecting rods, dry sump, and weighs about the same as a regular 911. It is faster in a strait line than 95% of the modded 930 on this board and faster than 99% of them on any kind of road course. Stock for stock it is an order of magnitude faster in any concievable way. I would have a better chance of beating mike Phelps in a swimming race than the 930 would have against a zo6.

Quality is hard to quantify but cost of owning and tracking a vette is less than a comparable porsche.

Stock for stock an 930 is faster and the better car than a vette of similar vintage.

Come on guys, dont make it hard to defend porsche owners on other car boards. Blind marque snobbery is bad stuff...
Aschen, I will stand by you so you're not taking a beating on this one. I think that most GM drivers, especially Corvette owners love to be Porsche haters too, so we need to support the Porsche marque. I do it every day here living in Detroit and working for Tier1 suppliers, and it does not make me popular. I think Porsche is the greatest car made, its why I own one. But I also like to be objective and apples to apples give credit where credit is due. The recent crop of Corvettes C6 and the Z06 are a magnitude better designed car compared to past GM history. They "can hang" on the track and are very fast for the money. Road and Track and other mags confirm this, I have driven on track days with them so I have seen it personally too. Would I buy one, No Way-still think they are crap if you look at the long haul. That being reliability and quality of construction....can you drive it to the track beat the crap out of it and drive home on regular basis? No, but give credit where credit is due. Performance numbers don't lie.
Plus I love to beat down those mullet wearing Corvette owners who think Porsche drivers are lame and un-American, You know it takes skill and balls to drive a 30 year old 930 fast around the track and any poser could drive a new Corvette quickly, where is the respect in that?
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---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"

Last edited by fredmeister; 10-30-2008 at 02:35 PM..
Old 10-30-2008, 02:27 PM
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I sold cars long enough to drive everything out there. I have owned plenty of musclecars and enough foreign cars to say that a Corvette is simply another low tech rear wheel drive car.

No matter what you say, they all feel the same to me, loose in the rear and tires that light up too quick. Ever since my 1971 Camaro SS with the pinstripes it has always been the same and even the new cars feel the same. Mustangs/Vipers are the same too.

The new Corvette is really just the same ole same ole with better tires and more engine. It still represents the best value by far in sport cars, and is fast as anything out there. But it is the appalling build quality that concerns me more than anything. I just cannot justify buying one when 996TT Porsches have also dropped hard in price.
Old 10-30-2008, 02:38 PM
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Stock performance doesn't mean anything to me- I could build anything I want because I am talented enough to do so. To the chooch who just wants to get into a fast car and not know anything except that Road & Track says it will beat Ferrari's lowest model or Porsche's non-turbos (that is what almost all of them compare) the vette is perfect. To someone like me who wants what the next person doesn't have- I choose Porsche because I want to modify any car that I drive and I know that a vette will deteriorate over a far shorter period of time. Hey, I slapped around a Z06 with 500 to the tire and had much fun doing it. Next time around with the ZR-1; Ill hit him with more boost, timing and displacment and achieve the same results. Anyone who has any engineering sense or builders sense knows that the vette is not built well.
I would rather live in a wooden shed than a cardboard mansion...
Oh- I almost forgot. The new ZR-1 needs 6.3 liters and a supercharger to put out 25 more horsepower than a 5.7 liter normally aspirated Porsche motor... I don't want to hear about cost, engineering is engineering no matter how you slice it.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:21 PM
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Ok Ill quit soon I promise, but Engineering is engineering and hp/liter is the most useless feature in all of the automotive world. My elise has 190 hp from 1.8 na liters, it is still slow (but awsome fun to drive). Hp/lb of engine wt or hp per cc/min of fuel (or thermodynamic efficiency) are good engineering metrics. SBC engine is small and light and pretty fuel effficent, sometimes simple is good. Here is a figure that is useles the ls9 makes 630 hp with only one camshaft, it has the highest hp/cam of any motor. Modding cars is great but what do you think the zr1 will run with say a 5k$ investment in drag radials, smaller sc pully, long tube headers and some modest weight reduction. Here is a hint: the ET for 1/4th mile will be in the single digits at 145+ mph. I am not sure any 930 on the planet can run that fast, if so it has a huge $ invested and driveability and reliability have been seriously compromised. How much hp do you think the vette will make with a serious build? 1000+ for starters. I dont have much to say about the reliability issues but I think you are wrong about modern vetts. Its not like mega hp 930s dont cost a mint to keep running either. For the price of a full engine build on a 930 you could probably keep a couple spare zr1 engines on hand.

stock for stock the vette is the faster and better handeling car
mod for mod$ the vette is the faster and better handeling car

the 930 is certainly the more unique and cool car. We buy and love these cars for emotional and sentimental reasons. I love the flares and the air cooled mechanical sound, or the fact that I had posters on my wall when i was a child. The performance per $ is easily beaten by other cars. A new Z06 costs the same as a new cayman s. Again the race between those cars would be like a bike race between lance armstrong and rush limbough.
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:14 PM
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Aschen you are right, without reservation.
Old 10-30-2008, 09:22 PM
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