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Ben, I'd like to give you a K27 turbine housing so that you can mock it up vs the 3LDZ. Email me kevin@ultimatemotorwerks.com if you want it.
Old 01-01-2009, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeroclearance View Post
Ben, I'd like to give you a K27 turbine housing so that you can mock it up vs the 3LDZ. Email me kevin@ultimatemotorwerks.com if you want it.
Kevin,

I actually have one here and it should be not problem as for fittment? I will check though to make sure. I have to make sure this fits for everybody as this hopefully will be a popular alternative to whats out there currently
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Old 01-01-2009, 06:01 PM
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For those of you who havent' seen Ben's TIG welding....you're in for a treat...these are the most professionally done TIG's I've seen. I measured wrong and I had to cut one of his pipe's down and took it to one of the best TIG welder in town....he marvelled at the welds and told me he couldn't duplicate the tight welds.
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Old 01-01-2009, 06:51 PM
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[QUOTE=mb911;4389747]I own M&K we are a fabrictor/exhaust manufacturer specific to porsche anyhow this is my pictures of the prototype.

your piece looks really nice i have not have the time to start with my own.

could you pleas put up a picture of you flanges after welding?
did you use MIG or TIG if TIG did you use 321 stick (don't know your word for it)
Old 01-02-2009, 10:16 AM
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[QUOTE=spjuvern;4392788]
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Originally Posted by mb911 View Post
I own M&K we are a fabrictor/exhaust manufacturer specific to porsche anyhow this is my pictures of the prototype.

your piece looks really nice i have not have the time to start with my own.

could you pleas put up a picture of you flanges after welding?
did you use MIG or TIG if TIG did you use 321 stick (don't know your word for it)

TIG everything with 347 ss filler
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:22 AM
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Better late than never.

On a stock 3.2 the SSI system primary tube length and size offers a little bump in efficiency right around 3000 to 3500. As the turbo will be adding back pressure to the system I suspect it will slow down the exhaust rate some so I guess there could be a small bump in tq just before and after 3k. However, the turbo starts coming in at that point so this may actually show any yeald. From the dyno info I saw that compared the SSI to stock 3.2 Carrera there was no help in efficiency any ware else. Thus, I would not expect any improvements from going SSI over the stock 3.3 system for the most part. It migh even be more restrictive at higher HP ranges with its smaller primary size.

However, maintaining a split system to a turbo that has a split scroll hot side is a known opportunity and SSI and 993's can both accomplish this.

The 993's do have a larger primary tube size and may create an opportunity for less back pressure at higher hp levels. However, most street 930's are running smallish hot sides anyway and this may not come to be a benefit.

Wiith the stock and 993HD ithere may be potential to create hotter cylinders do to the short tube design. Again, not an issue for a street 930. However, on the track, an SSI might make for more balanced temps at the exhaust valve.

Again, a fully spilt scroll system may be one opportunity to go after. I do not think having equal length primary tubes is of that much importance on the street as it migh on the track.

The other opportunity is creating an effective waste gate system. The WG style that B&B and others use may have some design limitations. Some have been suspect that this style of WG can trick the WG circuit to delivering a bit higher boost than expected. I suspect the HP gain on this type of system is from the poor WG design and the improved boost onset is from the improved presure differental created with a lower back presure muffer. But people buy it.

Running the more popular HF/K29 style turbos that retain the smallish hot side but add a larger compressor wheel also adds issue to the WG needs. The larger compressor wheel makes for more HP and also slows down the hot side wheel. This creates more back pressure and more gasses that need to escape from the WG circuit.

Now we have the poor WG circuit delivering higher boost than intended and the increased need to release more exhaust gas via the WG circuit. This is being seen as boost creep where we think we have a .8 bar spring but are seeing 1 bar of boost in the higher gears.

I am not an expert in this but I would not expect much changes pre boost between systems with our low overlap cams. I also would not expect any difference in boost onset with changes in HE design. Nor would I expect much difference in HP for the most part if boost is carefully adjusted for at the manifold due to varations in the WG circut (including any restriction after the WG).

I suspect more opportunity lies with the choice of turbo, if it is a full split scroll system, and what happens after the Turbo. Minimizing back pressure likely has more to do with increasing boost onset than messing with the header design for most street 930's.

A full race turbo or one running overlap cams might be a slightly different story.

Must my uneducated opinion.
Old 01-02-2009, 02:19 PM
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Equal length primaries do the same thing for a turbocharged engine that they do for a normally aspirated engine; increase torque off-boost. The added value beyond that is the exhaust pulse timing is optimized at the turbin which increases efficiency. It also allows a slight bump in HP at the top end due to more optimized flow. A turbocharged engine will also benefit from smaller primaries than expected due to the velocity created. Primary pipes on the factory 934 were 37mm (1.45"). The SSI system will support 600HP.
I plan to dyno the 993 and SSI based systems and compare to the stock J-pipe configuration. It is really not correct to test in that manner because the exchangers are just one component of a system and may work best with other specific components. For our use though it is acceptable to test against a known common setup as that is what most folks will use. I don't expect to see any earth shattering differences as this is a medium power street engine.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 01-02-2009, 02:47 PM
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Believe it or not guys aside from going twin scroll with twin 38vband tial wastegates I am looking at this as being a wash from my ssi setup I do think though with twin scroll It will spool a bit quicker this option is a bit cheaper for most involved. I will have $250 ($500 worst case if you purchase them from a salvage yard)in heat exchangers and if you figure $650-$700 retail for the Y connection this is a much better setup then OBX,GHL or B&B the ssi setup however is very clean and equal length in good packaging. My motivator though was to see what kind of gains I would see from seperating the banks and going twin wastegate

Is the K27 available in twin scroll? Just curious. I will update with pictures next week as I expect to wrap up the project then and ready for production units week after next.
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:26 PM
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All good info and opinions.

Some think having un-equal length headers on a turbo helps improve boost onset as it makes for a more significant pulse to get the turbine spinning. That could be an argument for the 993's or stock HE's.

Equal length is always a good idea. However, from the info I have seen on Carrera 3.2's SSI's do not help with our smog cams any in the 1000 to 2500rpm range. There is about a 7HP bump at about 3500 rpm but by that time on a turbo we should be strong into the boost and any efficencies from the equal length may be minimized. Just a guess as I have not seen any good back to back tests.

I am also suspect of the HP gains with the B&B shorties over stock 85+ HE's. The HP increase is most likely because of the poor wast gate design and reduced back pressure in the muffler. There are stories of some triggering the over-boost switch after a switch to B&B's even though the stock WG with the stock .8 bar spring was retained.

Once we stick a turbine on the headers I suspect a lot of the NA attributes change and the full header system acts more like a pressurized vessel with input holes and one output hole in it. I suspect the best thing about equal length headers then becomes equalizing heat at the exhaust valve.

For a not heat headers or for the track I like the following equal length system.

Maybe adapted with separate WG's and a twin scroll for a track car. However, that means getting away from the K27 turbo family and an increase in cost for the two WG's.

What I do not know is if the efforts warrant the benifit.

For a street car with heat, I suspect it is not worth changing out the stock Euro / 1985+ US HE's. There are better places to spend money.



Again, these are just opinions.
Old 01-02-2009, 08:18 PM
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What you are saying goes back to my comment about components and a system that is designed to work well together. The benifits of headers blur when compared to a properly set up and tuned 930 engine using the J-pipe H/E's. Add EFI and they blur further. There does come a point were headers are necessary to help the package be all it can be. They help in reducing lag which translates into better drivability. Standing alone, headers do not add much power but rather allow more power with mods. Much like you see in low restriction straight-through mufflers.
The 993 exchangers remove about a yard of pipe when compared to the 930 exchangers. That alone has got to help reduce lag.
Actually, and I don't really understand this myself, two 38mm TiAL waste gates cost about the same as a single 46mm TiAL 930 waste gate. Could be that the 38mm units have more applications than the 46mm.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:09 PM
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I suspect that when consideration is made for the quantity and velocity of gasses flowed, the difference in total volume between a stock HE set up and the others is not significant. Remember, the tube to the WG is part of that volume.

I believe turbo headers work differently than normally aspirated headers. I suspect they are more about volume and capacity. Back pressure or any attempt at tuning for scavenging is mostly null. Especially at the rpm we operate and the cams we run. Thus, tube size, primary length, secondary length, and tuning is less of a variable in their effectiveness.

What most are trying for with headers on a 930 is reduced lag not increased capacity. I have for a long time suspected that the B&B shorties and similar headers are mostly ways to get people to part with there money and not trully a significant improvement over the euro/late factory style HE's. For most, anything more than a very low restriction muffler that exits the passenger side is chasing very little opportunity.

Not an expert, just an opinion.
Old 01-02-2009, 11:10 PM
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I, too, have also often thought that having a turbo "plugging" the exhaust path muddied the waters with regard to exhaust scavenging. However, look at pictures of turbocharged race engines (including those produced by the Porsche factory) and you will see every attempt to use equal length headers in these applications. Since race engines get dyno'ed to death, I can only assume that there is benefit it having them. Since these are road racing cars they are required to produce torque at relatively low speeds perhaps this is an effort to enhance off-boost performance too.

There is anecdotal evidence that, for HP/torque gains, B&B is the best and provides a 20hp gain over a stock system and is in fact a better performing system than the GHL system owed to it's better collector design. I say anecdotal because I've never seen any independent dyno results posted (and I have asked people on several occasions to post results so I suspect they might not exist). Also, those who have headers report boost onset and 400-500 rpm lower than what they were seeing with the stock system, as Brian stated. As for boost creep in higher gears, that is the Achilles heel of the aftermarket systems and I assume it's due to packaging constraints. The stock system does well in this regard (the exhaust flow to the w/g isn't being turned 180 degrees as it does in the aftermarket systems). However, I've experienced boost creep in high gears with my stock system. It wasn't severe but was no less annoying.

As for the stock H/E's, lets consider the fact that the exhaust from #4 cylinder is made to travel almost 7 feet ( I measured the path this morning). The path for cylinders 5 and 6 aren't much better (even when looking at the H/E's of the 993 TT, it's apparent that packaging the system was the primary focus of the factory). This represents sizable friction and thermal losses that won't be present in any short-path header system. Why did the factory saddle the Turbo with such an inefficient system? Packaging and cost. There are two things that the factory exhaust system is the champion of: ground clearance and durability. The geometry of the stock system allows it to be tucked under the car to the maximum. The factory's packaging isn't very light, however. The stock system weighs a portly 60 lb. The system is manufactured from ferritic stainless steel, which performs in the "hot end" environment far better than the 304 stainless used widely in the aftermarket. The H/E's manufacturing process obviously shares tooling with the normally aspirated models, yielding a cost savings.

So what we aim the achieve with the 993 H/E based system is a header with factory-like durability, improved performance over the factory system, lighter weight (I estimate a 20 lb savings off the tail of the car and that is a conservative number) and superior cost to aftermarket systems. I feel that we have a really good chance to achieve all these goals.
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Last edited by 911nut; 01-03-2009 at 05:58 AM..
Old 01-03-2009, 05:51 AM
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Along with the earlier onset of boost, the after market "shorty" headers ala B&B have been documented on the "other" forum to produce an additional 100 lb foot of torque over the factory system on the dyno at 3000 RPM. Regardless of the horsepower gains this IS significant.

JP
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Along with the earlier onset of boost, the after market "shorty" headers ala B&B have been documented on the "other" forum to produce an additional 100 lb foot of torque over the factory system on the dyno at 3000 RPM.
You have to be mindful of how that is interpreted. This may be a true statement but it would not be a true statement to simply say that headers add 100 #/Ft of torque. They do not. What happens is the same torque curve begins lower in the RPM range. Of course that translates to an earlier boost threshold which a lot of folks prefer.

Header design most definitely affects performance. That is not an opinion but a fact. The most glaring example that we are all familiar with is the USA vs Euro 930 heat exchangers. The '78-9 Euro 930 is rated at 300HP while the USA version is rated at 265HP. The major difference is the headers/exchangers. That is the #1 upgrade I suggest to folks who have the US system.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 01-03-2009, 10:47 AM
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[/QUOTE]So what we aim the achieve with the 993 H/E based system is a header with factory-like durability, improved performance over the factory system, lighter weight (I estimate a 20 lb savings off the tail of the car and that is a conservative number) and superior cost to aftermarket systems. I feel that we have a really good chance to achieve all these goals.[/QUOTE]

Exactly my goal here and the funny thing is that We will be well below cost of B&B and the likes for cost with more benifits wastegate locations though are the last hurdle
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by rsrfan View Post
Along with the earlier onset of boost, the after market "shorty" headers ala B&B have been documented on the "other" forum to produce an additional 100 lb foot of torque over the factory system on the dyno at 3000 RPM. Regardless of the horsepower gains this IS significant.

JP
I am not disputing that this is the case.

However, how it is done is not due to a superior header design. The added HP I suspect is from the higher boost they trigger due to the poor design of the wast gate circuit. Again, there are reported cases of adding this system and then triggering the over-boost switch with no other changes. This would not happen if the WG circuit worked correctly.

The earlier boost comes from creating a more significant pressure differential on each side of the turbine wheel. This is better achived on the exit side of the turbine with any straight through low restriction muffler. It is not effected that much by the the header portion.

I would prefer SSI, or 993 to B&B. If we buy into the idea that the B&B is a benefit because of there shorty design and small volunm, then the SSI should have to be judged and inferior with it's long primary tube design. However, the SSI and 993 would likely last longer and be subject to less need of a reweld.

Equal length short headers are alwas a good idea. For a race car "short" equal length with good colectors is a more effecent design and worthy of the effort. They offer a more orderly exaust path and thus result in more even tempetures at the exaust valves.

With the newer design turbos that have a much higher ratio of turbin to compressor we are pushing higher back presures in the exaust system than ever before. As such I belive the header design is less important. Because of this we now have more issue with the WG being able to exit the gasses that use to go through the turbine.

I very much like the 993 turbo set up idea and if I needed HE's it would be my pick. However, from an operation point, I do not see much benifit over stock as a header. However, if the WG issues can be improved upon, that could be an added benifit. The other benifit noted is configering it for a ture split scroll turbo system.

I still suspect the headers to be a small part of how we go about improveing boost onset and reducing lag on a CIS motor in the HP ranges we make.

Just food for thought.
Old 01-03-2009, 01:43 PM
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Not an expert, just my thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
The most glaring example that we are all familiar with is the USA vs Euro 930 heat exchangers. The '78-9 Euro 930 is rated at 300HP while the USA version is rated at 265HP. The major difference is the headers/exchangers. That is the #1 upgrade I suggest to folks who have the US system.
I am not saying that header or muffler design dose not effect performance on a turbo. Most have to agree that the original US 930 HE's were very poor. Bruce Anderson / Jerry Woods sense the 70's have also make also been suggesting changing these to euro style HE's as a first mod. They also note if this is not done, adding SC cams will not be of benifit.

I suspect there is much more dammage with a poor design on a 930 than potental to be achived through a perfict desigh.

I also believe the euro cars also did not have as much restriction on the cat/muffler side as the US cars and I am not sure but I seem to recall the factory boost spec range for US and euro cars was just a little bit higher (.8 v .85 bar max?) on the euro cars. There may even have been a bit of a difference with the ignition spec for the better euro gas but I do not know this. Thus, this may not be a perfect example of header opertunity on 930's.

However, when is comes to the 930 Euro style, SSI style, and 993 style, and B&B style HE's, if you adjust for equal boost delivery, I suspect there is not much difference in potential on a CIS 930.


I belive:

Header design with high lift cams on normally aspirated (NA) motors is important to potential.

Header design with low-overlap cams on NA motors is of moderate importance to potential. (SSI & 3.2 HE's make the same HP except at 3500rpm.)

Header design on a turbo car, that creates significant back pressure and is running low overlap cams, is of small importance to potential.

Muffler design is important to both turbos and NA motors potential.

Old 01-03-2009, 02:23 PM
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PS,

I look forward to any developments made.

If there is going to finally be some dyno comparisons made I would suggest finding a Dyno that can monitor manifold boost. And, using the same muffler on each. It will make for a much more valid comparison.

Best of Luck.
Old 01-03-2009, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
PS,

I look forward to any developments made.

If there is going to finally be some dyno comparisons made I would suggest finding a Dyno that can monitor manifold boost. And, using the same muffler on each. It will make for a much more valid comparison.

Best of Luck.

Brian will have data on his tests as he already has euro info then he will do ssi (for the non believers) and the 993 setup.

Keep coming with the ideas please all good info that will help to make the final product better and a good option for some folks looking for a more compact design using some parts that are easy to find and cheaper(tial waste gates@$225 each give or take) Brian will also use his muffler on all the tests as he would not be a trader of his own design
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:03 PM
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Ben, I am also really interested in the final product, been looking at Brian's mufflers also. Not very pleased with the current B&B, GHL etc solutions. Would like to make a package purchase sometime later this year.
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Old 01-03-2009, 06:45 PM
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