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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucittm View Post
Ben,
As if you didn't have enough to worry about right now, I'd like to plant a seed. How about locating the turbo in the middle so the pipes from the HE to the turbo are equal length? I know it would require a different bracket, but for track days it could be a bolt on and the output of the turbo could simply be a zork pipe. I have a vision of the 935 setup, with a more normal sized turbo.

Mark

anything is possible with time but man all custom one off would be costly.
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Current project 73 914-6 Gt project rusteration 2.4
Reproduction 914-6 oil tanks, 1-5/8" 914-6 heat exchangers source call 2623647426 or email mbconsulting21 @gmail.com
Old 01-21-2009, 03:19 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #121 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS View Post
(shrug) Lots of theories here.

IMO, go with what has proven to create beaucoup HP - I love the B&Bs I now have. Lag? Almost zip.
Can't say I need any more HP than I already have. I'd chase HP gains with other means: Turbo, inlet plumbing, Zork, removing ALL emissions crap and ONLY leaving the WUR and bypass valve.

It's all you need.

But it's good to come up with new ideas and methods! I say "prove it" ;-)
The simple fact is that B+B make huge power increases.

Last edited by DDDD; 01-21-2009 at 01:21 PM..
Old 01-21-2009, 11:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #122 (permalink)
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Just an opinion. The B&B's are a nice system and a major improvement over the early US heat exchangers. Most know of there propensity to crack over time.

I believe there wast gate design is suspect. It adds unnecessary volume to the system and has been known to trick the WG into delivering a higher boost than spec. If one adds a turbo like a K29 or a HF with the smaller hot side and a big compressor wheel it exaggerates the WG issue and can make for over-boost. I had a .7 bar tial and some times pulled 1 bar do to over-boost. This and the lower restriction muffler seems to be where they get there HP.
Old 01-21-2009, 12:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #123 (permalink)
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Typically B&B produce about .1 bar more than the spring ought to produce.

I too wonder about the 993 HE lengevity - BUT remember they are made like freaking tanks & the actual HE section is where most leaks happen.

I am typically quite skeptical, but I give the 993 setup a pretty good chance.
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 01-21-2009, 12:06 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #124 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Just an opinion. The B&B's are a nice system and a major improvement over the early US heat exchangers. Most know of there propensity to crack over time.

I believe there wast gate design is suspect. It adds unnecessary volume to the system and has been known to trick the WG into delivering a higher boost than spec. If one adds a turbo like a K29 or a HF with the smaller hot side and a big compressor wheel it exaggerates the WG issue and can make for over-boost. I had a .7 bar tial and some times pulled 1 bar do to over-boost. This and the lower restriction muffler seems to be where they get there HP.
My boost gauge always reads exactly what I set my boost level at, with a OEM wastegate.

I am not sure you can blame the B+Bs if your tial can't handle the air flow. I have heard that Tial's are complicit in the overboost phenomenon with aftermarket headers, but I am no expert.

Last edited by DDDD; 01-21-2009 at 04:55 PM..
Old 01-21-2009, 12:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #125 (permalink)
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Craig 930 RS's Avatar
 
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Here is a HUGE credible, real-world vote for the 993 setup:

This car:
739 RWHP! 965

Uses 993 HEs - ALmost 700 RWHP.

SOMEWHERE I have some pictures.........
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 01-21-2009, 12:25 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #126 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS View Post
Here is a HUGE credible, real-world vote for the 993 setup:

This car:
739 RWHP! 965

Uses 993 HEs - ALmost 700 RWHP.

SOMEWHERE I have some pictures.........
well someone in your neck of the woods will be testing it shortly with hopefully dyno results. His should be there by friday. I can't wait to see either
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Current project 73 914-6 Gt project rusteration 2.4
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Old 01-21-2009, 12:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #127 (permalink)
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How much overboost you get with a B&B depends upon the turbo used, among other things.
If you're not pushing much air you won't get much overboost. There are folks here on this forum who have blown engines by overboosting when using the combination of B&B and a big turbo.
The dual waste gate design follows suit by becoming more important with higher flow turbos. It is a more precise way to meter the boost signal and relieve the pressure. I plan to dyno both the 993 and SSI systems using dual waste gates. Those graphs will be compared to my baseline engine using the stock J-pipe style exhaust. No other changes will be made; very exited to see the results. I have ordered one set of dual 38mm TiAL units to use on both systems. Should be a very fair test.
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 01-21-2009, 12:37 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #128 (permalink)
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Well here ya go - the car with those HEs is still for sale:

http://www.parkplaceltd.com/inventoryDisplay.aspx?s=blank_detail&year=1991&make=Porsche&model=911%20Turbo%20-%20739hp&inv=282&vin=WP0AA2964MS480221&total=51&pos=36&current=1&size=50
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 01-21-2009, 12:44 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #129 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
How much overboost you get with a B&B depends upon the turbo used, among other things.
If you're not pushing much air you won't get much overboost. There are folks here on this forum who have blown engines by overboosting when using the combination of B&B and a big turbo.
The dual waste gate design follows suit by becoming more important with higher flow turbos. It is a more precise way to meter the boost signal and relieve the pressure. I plan to dyno both the 993 and SSI systems using dual waste gates. Those graphs will be compared to my baseline engine using the stock J-pipe style exhaust. No other changes will be made; very exited to see the results. I have ordered one set of dual 38mm TiAL units to use on both systems. Should be a very fair test.
It is entirely probable that the 993 would flow much better than a B+B with modified engines, and when you make 500 hp, the differences in headers might be less noticeable because you are pushing so much power to begin with.

The magic of the B+B is what happens to a normal engine when you slap it on. It just makes more useable power everywhere.

If the 993 captures that magic on stock engines than you have a winner.
Old 01-21-2009, 12:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #130 (permalink)
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Yeah, exactly. I suspect the durability would be greater, but that is *just* a guesstimate.

Not to mention the price........$600-$700ish vs several thousand!
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 01-21-2009, 01:33 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #131 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDDD View Post
My boost gauge always reads exactly what I set my boost level at, with a OEM wastegate, so I guess I don't agree.

I am not sure you can blame the B+Bs if your tial can't handle the air flow. I have heard that Tial's are complicit in the overboost phenomenon with aftermarket headers, but I am no expert.

What turbo are you running?
Old 01-21-2009, 02:23 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #132 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 911st View Post
What turbo are you running?
Just a regular K 27 from the 90s.

I am not saying that B+Bs are going to be the correct header in all cases, and they clearly have issues with quality, and probably the 993 headers will be the ultimate solution for bigger builds due to the dual wastegate.

I just want to see other headers compete with B+B on power, while clearly being higher quality to boot rather than a trade off.

I do like the 993 and everything Ben makes, so I will be eager to see dyno results.

I would ten times rather buy an exhaust from Ben than Billy Boat, no doubt, and I did buy a pipe from Brian.

Last edited by DDDD; 01-21-2009 at 04:59 PM..
Old 01-21-2009, 03:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #133 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDDD View Post
Just a regular K 27 from the 90s.

I am not saying that B+Bs are going to be the correct header in all cases, and they clearly have issues with quality, and probably the 993 headers will be the ultimate solution for bigger builds due to the dual wastegate.

I just want to see other headers compete with B+B on power, while clearly being higher quality to boot rather than a trade off.

I do like the 993 and everything Ben makes, so I will be eager to see dyno results.

I would ten times rather buy an exhaust from Ben than Billy Boat, no doubt, and I did buy a pipe from Brian.

hopefully data shortly we will see
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Current project 73 914-6 Gt project rusteration 2.4
Reproduction 914-6 oil tanks, 1-5/8" 914-6 heat exchangers source call 2623647426 or email mbconsulting21 @gmail.com
Old 01-22-2009, 07:55 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #134 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDDD View Post
My boost gauge always reads exactly what I set my boost level at, with a OEM wastegate.

I am not sure you can blame the B+B if your tial can't handle the air flow. I have heard that Tial's are complicit in the over-boost phenomenon with aftermarket headers, but I am no expert.
You indicate you have the stock turbo.

I do not belive there is much issue with stock Turbo on the B&B style shorties as to boost creep. It is the modified turbos that use a smaller hot side (K27-7200) with larger compressor wheels (well over 60mm inducer). These slow down the hot side wheel and also create more exhaust from moving more air at higher rpms. This increases the amount of exhaust that must exit the WG and potential for creep. I did not have any issue with boost creep on my K27-7200 B&B combo. It was when I went with the bigger turbo that boost-creep appeared.

I suspect if one added up all the tubing on a shorty style including the WG tube, the shortie's do have less volume but not as much less as many think compaired to the factory euro style HE's.

Collector design, WG design, WG flow capacity, primary tube size, and durability might be things to look at in the choice of headers / HE's.

Reducing back pressure after the turbo is where turbo response and increased HP can most be improved.

Just an opinion, I am not an expert.
Old 01-23-2009, 07:26 AM
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Would freeing up the pressure after the turbo also reduce propensity for boost creep? I think it would because the lower pressure after the turbo would allow less back up of pressure thru to the inlet side plumbing correct? Thinking out loud.
Can anyone describe the boost creep phenomenon as it happens during running in the car?
How would one determine the wastegate spring is not the cause, I mean what would happen to the boost gage whole driving to know whether you have creep or just a spring that was too stiff to control boost where you want it?
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---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 01-23-2009, 08:45 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #136 (permalink)
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what must be modified to run heater tubing to the 993 heat exchangers from the engine and to the chassis?
It looks like the outlet pipes from the HE are fairly different than stock and other B&B style set ups.
Any photos of the top side looking down on the engine to see the inlet connections?
This is a great looking header and cannot wait for test results from the dyno.
It is great that someone takes on the challenge of fabbing this stuff for us Porsche faithful-----hats off mb911 and Rarlyl8!
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 01-23-2009, 09:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #137 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredmeister View Post
what must be modified to run heater tubing to the 993 heat exchangers from the engine and to the chassis?
It looks like the outlet pipes from the HE are fairly different than stock and other B&B style set ups.
Any photos of the top side looking down on the engine to see the inlet connections?
This is a great looking header and cannot wait for test results from the dyno.
It is great that someone takes on the challenge of fabbing this stuff for us Porsche faithful-----hats off mb911 and Rarlyl8!

I plan On making kits for the heat so it will work with a stock early style setup. and it was all mb911 on this project However rarlyl8 will be the test mule and of course could not have done the project without some chatting on the phone about turbo sizing with Brian thanks for the help as well kevin with discussions. now lets get these tested and try and sell a few sets to you guys with those worn out B&B's
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Current project 73 914-6 Gt project rusteration 2.4
Reproduction 914-6 oil tanks, 1-5/8" 914-6 heat exchangers source call 2623647426 or email mbconsulting21 @gmail.com
Old 01-23-2009, 11:22 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #138 (permalink)
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That is correct. I looked at doing this same project a couple of years ago (see Evil Engine thread with pictures) and decided that the driver's side exchanger was too close to the stock turbo location which would cause a fitment problem. Glad Ben proved me wrong!
I sold my flipped flange 993 exchangers after that and sure wish I had them back now ...
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 01-23-2009, 12:46 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #139 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
That is correct. I looked at doing this same project a couple of years ago (see Evil Engine thread with pictures) and decided that the driver's side exchanger was too close to the stock turbo location which would cause a fitment problem. Glad Ben proved me wrong!
I sold my flipped flange 993 exchangers after that and sure wish I had them back now ...


Kind of for your enjoyment Brian
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Current project 73 914-6 Gt project rusteration 2.4
Reproduction 914-6 oil tanks, 1-5/8" 914-6 heat exchangers source call 2623647426 or email mbconsulting21 @gmail.com
Old 01-23-2009, 12:58 PM
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