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faster than I once was...
 
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turbo vs supercharger

I've done some research on this and I know there's probably a thread already about it on here, but if you could give me something fresh as far as your view is concerned I would most certainly appreciate your views on turbo vs supercharger in a Porsche.
Thanks,
Dave
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Old 11-19-2008, 03:00 PM
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Well Dave,
this one has been hashed out to fistacuffs and you`ll find TONS of info on here if you search. A supercharger creates power with no lag,right from idle which is nice but it creates this power at great cost. lt might cost 50horsepower to make 100horsepower,the parasitical drag is enormous compared to a turbo system. Personally l feel superchargers wear out motors much faster then turbos providing the same boost.This is widely believed by some,denied by others and proven by many. There is a really good reason Supercharger kits are not as popular for Porsches as turbo conversions.
Having said all that, one day if given the right opportunities l`d love to build up a supercharged 3.2L Carrera or 964, the technology has improved quite a bit since the early days..
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:55 PM
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I have heard more than once and agree that superchargers create more wear and tear on engine components than a turbo.
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Old 11-20-2008, 01:15 PM
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I am finishing up a supercharging project now and will be in a position to share the process, costs and results hopefully within a month.
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2007 911 Turbo - Not a toy
1985 911 Cab - Wife's toy
1982 911 3.2 Indiash Rot Track Supercharged track toy
1978 911 3.0 Lichtbau toy "Gretchen"
1971 911 Targa S backroad toy
Old 11-20-2008, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJL View Post
I am finishing up a supercharging project now and will be in a position to share the process, costs and results hopefully within a month.

What are you building?
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:34 PM
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3.2 perfectbore, 8:1 JE piston twin plugged autorotor twin-screw with big honkin intercooler, Adaptronic ECU.
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2007 911 Turbo - Not a toy
1985 911 Cab - Wife's toy
1982 911 3.2 Indiash Rot Track Supercharged track toy
1978 911 3.0 Lichtbau toy "Gretchen"
1971 911 Targa S backroad toy
Old 11-20-2008, 07:15 PM
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JohnJL, when are you expecting to crank it up?
Old 11-21-2008, 06:01 AM
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John,you have to share this with us,sounds first class..
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Old 11-21-2008, 09:43 AM
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I'm aiming to Christmas to start tuning. We're still finishing up the brackets/intercooler plumbing, manifolds, bypass valving and throttle actuation.

There is a thread here with the progress up to about 2 months ago....I'll try and snap some more next week.

Santa came today...Pics of Autorotor 417 Supercharger

Not everyone liked my intake modifications but the proof will be in the dyno I guess...

The brackets we have now are brilliant. The manifolds are works of art as well, I'll send images next time I get down to the shop.
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2007 911 Turbo - Not a toy
1985 911 Cab - Wife's toy
1982 911 3.2 Indiash Rot Track Supercharged track toy
1978 911 3.0 Lichtbau toy "Gretchen"
1971 911 Targa S backroad toy
Old 11-21-2008, 02:47 PM
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sounds like we've gotten the interests of more than a few "Pelicans"!
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Old 11-23-2008, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raceman View Post
Well Dave,
this one has been hashed out to fistacuffs and you`ll find TONS of info on here if you search. A supercharger creates power with no lag,right from idle which is nice but it creates this power at great cost. lt might cost 50horsepower to make 100horsepower,the parasitical drag is enormous compared to a turbo system. Personally l feel superchargers wear out motors much faster then turbos providing the same boost.This is widely believed by some,denied by others and proven by many. There is a really good reason Supercharger kits are not as popular for Porsches as turbo conversions.
Having said all that, one day if given the right opportunities l`d love to build up a supercharged 3.2L Carrera or 964, the technology has improved quite a bit since the early days..
All the points made in this reply are excellent. The motor has to overcome another set of substantial pulleys (two at minimum) to even start building power, hence the parasitic drag or lag, 8 and 12 cylinder engines can overcome this quite easily, 6 cylinder engines are marginal and 4 cylinder engines forget it. I had a project a few years ago where I supercharged my N/A engine and I was *very* disappointed with the results, you can tell the engine was definitely making more HP and more torque but considering the cost, time, fabrication and effort, the results left me a little gasping and I kick myself that I just did not turbocharge the engine instead. I would have been ahead in terms of performance, effort (and time involved) and would have probably saved a few $$$ in the process.

I even went with a custom CNC crank pulley to spin the supercharger to a higher boost (12psi) in conjuction with a custom CNC pulley on the Supercharger as well. I also intercooled the motor with a large intercooler and custom flame bent aluminum piping (read "$$$$") with the most gentle bends to help flow, after it was said and done, the end result did not yield the results I was anticipating. I even rebuilt the SC (Roots style SC) thinking that it may been a problem with it, but it was perfect even when I took it apart (teflon blades with perfect seal) and made no difference to performance when I put it back together.

I wish I had dyno'd the car, but never made it to the dyno. The coolest part of the conversion was that I had the TPS set with the Supercharger relay, and at a certain throttle position, the SC relay would "click" and you could feel the SC kick in. Mid range throttle response was decent so long as you were in the power band. One frustration I could never figure out was that at wide open throttle the boost would hit 12psi for a second or two and then slowly creep back down to around 10psi, I could never figure out why I lost 2psi and that frustrated me to no avail (hence rebuilding the SC, the intercooler and the flame bent aluminum piping).

Turbo technology has become so impressive with the new type of turbos, wastegates, blow off valves etc available, that in my opinion there is no alternative, not even close.

Go out and drive a SC motor at 10psi and a turbo engine at 10psi and then report back in with which one left you (more) impressed.

No disrespect to JohnJL or any other members who are partial to Superchargers, but this is my view based on actual wrench time and experience.

Regards - Yasin
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Old 11-23-2008, 06:52 AM
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today I am reminded of a truck I saw in my uncle's shop years ago... SC & twin turbo! It had to have been a huge diesel engine to have both... didn't it?
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Old 11-23-2008, 08:28 AM
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Research - Tested - Proven

For Porsche sixes the turbo is the only way to go due to the extent of research, testing, and street and track experience. Super chargers are great and eliminate the lag problems, but so much has been done to perfect the Porsche turbo. Porsche Turbo parts are so available. On the other hand MB has spent their time on engineering the supercharger. So if you want a supercharger, the MB engineering would be useful. If you want a Porsche, the benefit of 30 plus years of development and racing experience say it all. Definitely MHO.

diverdan
Old 11-25-2008, 02:48 AM
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I never understood why Porsche guys are so afraid of turbo lag, I think it makes the ride more interesting. I would think someone who has the capabilities to create a full super charger kit would maybe try to do a full sequential turbo setup like that on the 959. A supercharger could be cool, but these cars would pull like freight trains with sequential setups. A Mazda Rx-7 pulls strong (even stock) with a sequential setup and that is out of 1.3 liters. I wish I had the resources to attempt this.
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Old 11-25-2008, 02:13 PM
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Mark Hargett (Natchamp) has done both supercharging and turbocharging to the same engine. Would be a great person to answer this question.

I cannot find a picture of the supercharged version but here is the turbo:

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Old 11-25-2008, 06:59 PM
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Ingenious air filter placement...!! There is talent out there... wow!

Beautiful motor.
Yasin
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Old 11-25-2008, 07:58 PM
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You should see the car it's in ...

Here is Mark's website:
www.hargettprecision.com
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'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
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Old 11-25-2008, 08:43 PM
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Yeah,pure eye candy/speed porn on the natchamp mill .... but although l know logic states turbo boost conversions are superior overall l just enjoy the mechanical persona of a correctly engineered and executed supercharger system on the flat six. But then l would also like to "twin-charge" a 3.2L motor with BOTH supercharger AND turbo. l`m openminded, rigid thinking has no place in the quest for flat six overachieving kickassedness

___like the legendary "triple turbo" ? no proof yet but l`d love to see one...
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Old 11-30-2008, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raceman View Post
like the legendary "triple turbo"? no proof yet but l`d love to see one...
I could be wrong, but I think that the drift 993 turbo is tri-turbo setup-
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Old 12-01-2008, 12:23 PM
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