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Gotta Jibboo
 
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I have more top end power in mine. It is by no means sluggish on the low end, I also think I have a LWFW, based on how it rev's, and runs off idle.

When I got it, it was running 1.1 bar worth of springs in the Tial. I also have a B&B header with heat set up, no cats.

The turbo is a mystery, as it looks like a K27 7200, but the id tag has been removed. It spools up around 2400-2600 rpm, and it doesn't run out of boost on the top end.

In summary, my car isn't a good example because there are too many unknowns.

I am planning on getting it on a dyno at some point in the near future.

Bill
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1992 964 Turbo (sold) Holy crap are these expensive now!
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I don't know why I do the hillbilly things I do.
Old 12-03-2008, 07:45 AM
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Do you have an added boost gage? How do you know you are not loosing boost?

Over about .9 bar above 6k rpm the stock system can start to run out of fuel.

A good dyno facility can monitor your Air Fuel ratio and the Boost level against TQ, HP.

Most are used to the A/F but you may have to shop around for one that dose the boost.
Old 12-03-2008, 08:39 AM
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One thing missing here on PP is a better representation of the 965/C2Ts. Below the intercooler they're the same engine as the 930, so I find myself here for the engine stuff and on the 964 forum for chassis stuff.
I dropped my motor back in July to put in some 964 cams... and things spiraled out of control from there. I had planned an eventual, modest EFI (if I can say "modest"), but when I dropped the motor and saw all the oil leaks I said "ah hellwiddit" and just kept disassembling.

Some thoughts:
Our exhaust valve guides are a weak point. My engine showed no wear anywhere after 89k, EXCEPT the exh guides were shot... which necessitated a full head rebuild. Whileyerinthereitis took over and now I'm putting my engine back together with 38mm intakes, twin-plug, port/polish, 964 cams, and 8:1 pistons to counter the static CR loss by the longer-duration cams. I will actually be using a lower boost (until EFI) because I know CIS won't support the above mods.

On the subject of intake port sizes, allegedly the 3.6T has 38mm intakes. Some say the Andial S2 and/or '93 3.3 Turbo S have 38s. But I haven't found any different part numbers for matching injector stacks to corroborate this. Does anyone have any info on that?
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JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 12-03-2008, 08:44 AM
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Jon,
I started going through the PET C2 parts diagrams and there are some interesting part numbers for the ".M50" option, but technical details are lacking, to say the least. I'm going to go through Paul Frerer book to cross-check.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 12-03-2008, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
On the C2T the cat/muffler is the dog. The muffler in the pasanger rear fender is not restrictive and you can pass a tennis ball through it.
Apparently you haven't driven a Turbo with a high flow muffler or you wouldn't say that. The stock muffler turns the exhaust thru 180 degrees, which makes it more restrictive than a RarlyL8 muffler.
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Originally Posted by 911st View Post
My belive is the C2 and most the turbos do not need headers. The magic is eliminating as much back pressure as possable after the turbine wheel.
Those who have headers report boost onset occurring at a lower rpm, making the Turbo perform closer to a normally aspirated car, which some people prefer.
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Originally Posted by 911st View Post
It is my belife that the B&B has a poor wastgate design that tricks the wastgate into providing higher boost than intended. When I had my C2T several of us that ran Tial WG's that had to use lower boost springs to get the boost we wanted.
I use a .7 bar spring to obtain .9 bar on my car and I have stock exhaust up to the turbo. This seems to be more of a tuning issue. The springs could be labeled "sexy", "more sexy" and "very sexy" for all the difference it makes. In the end a boost gage is desirable when using an aftermarket W/G for proper tuning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
I still think the magic on a C2T is a vac sensing WIR, cat bypass, and gears from a C2/4 3.6. The stock first is tall and expensive to change our but putting 2-5 in it makes for a closer range gear box that keeps you in boost and the power band between shifts.
The 930/965 engine uses a boost sensing WUR so I don't understand how a vacuum sensing WUR would work on a turbo car. Can you elaborate?
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Originally Posted by 911st View Post
I also changed the orintation of my custom compressor bypass valve. It was open all the time and slamed shut only when I lost vacunm with acceleration for instant boost. My boost stayed at over .8bar between shifts with no compressor stall.
The recirculation valve is closed until the engine makes vacuum to open it, reducing the high pressure trapped between the throttle plate and the compressor. This keeps the compressor spinning faster in ambient pressure air.
I had an issue regarding the low rpm drop due to the recirc system dumping the air into the intake. I would have to wait forever for the revs to drop enough to shift without destroying my clutch. The turbo would slow way down. I no longer dump that air into the engine but out to the atmosphere. No waiting to shift means a compressor that's still spinning fast and more instantaneous boost.
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Old 12-03-2008, 01:47 PM
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Agreed, the lower the back pressure in the muffler the better. I stand by my note on the factory muffler and heat exchanger. It is a very good system w/o the combo cat/muffler. The remainng muffler is not a big bend. It is a very open chamber on a tail pipe hooked to it.

There are no dought better muffler systems. My fav is to dump into a flow through muffler and exit the pasanger side with very little bend.

Of cource the best turbo exaust is very short (apx 10"), straight, and with the proper flair to it to keep the gasses from slowing down when they cool but not so much they delaminate against the walls of the tubing.

The 76/77 turbo had a vac sensing WUR. It would reduce control pressure when manifold vacuum went away. The WUR's after that take something like .5 bar of boost before the control pressure is lowed. After the exhaust past the turbo is opened up the next bigest thing that is contributing to turbo lag is the restrictive metering plate. Reducing CP earlier reduces this lag in a noticable way.

I used to reduce my CP to almost zero electronically with a frequency valve and controler to get the metering plate moving. Then I would bring back some to the CP to keep my fuel ratio where I needed it.

As to the CBV, on a stock C2T the compressor bypass valve works only under significant vacuum between shifts. If you do not hear it hiss between shifts or if your boost drops a bunch between shifts, it is bad. The do seem to fail quite often.

CIS trubos are unique as they can not use a Blow Off Valve that vents to atmosphere. The air must be circulated around the compressor wheel in a way to keep the air flow through the metering plate flowing at the correct rate. A larger Compressor Bypass Valve allows more air to pass between shifts and keeps the compressor spinning at a faster rate so boost comes up faster.

I put an after market adjustable CBV on my C2T that had a higher flow rate for less stall between shifts. Many people do this.

However, I figured out that if one could keep it open the compressor wheel would have to spin faster as air is alowed to escape around the compressor in a loop. Thus, if the compressor wheel was spinning faster most the time. This gave me ready reserve and instant boost when I needed it instead of waiting for the turbo to have to spin up.

This was noticeable on the freeway when I needed to pass and off the line when I cracked the throtle.
Old 12-04-2008, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
CIS trubos are unique as they can not use a Blow Off Valve that vents to atmosphere.
Why? When the recirc valve opens it dumps the air into the i/c which dumps the air to the diaphragm valve which opens when the recirc valve opens. End result is that air is shoved into the engine behind the throttle plate. Meanwhile the metering plate has moved to the idle position. If you dump this air to atmosphere the end result is the same; the metering plate moves to the minimum flow position and doesn't know/care about which way the air went.
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Old 12-04-2008, 06:50 PM
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Find a C2T turbo digram some where.

The Compressor By Pass Valve dose exactly that. It bypasses air around the compressor wheel. It takes compressed air off the inter-cooler and circulates it back to the intake, after the metering plate, and before the turbo.

If you vent air from any area after the metering valve to atmosphere the injection system will be supplying fuel for the full amount of the air flowing through it.

CIS is not like efi where it can shut down fuel flow.

You could vent the air but what would happen is there would be extra fuel that might turn the exhaust turbine into a jet engine.

That is good for turbo lag but hard on the turbo. Some of the factory CIS race cars did this trick.
Old 12-04-2008, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
If you vent air from any area after the metering valve to atmosphere the injection system will be supplying fuel for the full amount of the air flowing through it.

You could vent the air but what would happen is there would be extra fuel that might turn the exhaust turbine into a jet engine.
But the point is that when the throttle closes there is very little air flowing through the metering system, only what is flowing through the idle bypass.
The high pressure air is dumped into the engine for emissions. If the throttle is allowed to snap shut there is a small puff of rich exhasut that would foul the cat. Both turbos and n/a cars have schemes to make this tiny amount of exhaust lean for the cat.
My car doesn't have a IA fuel head and doesn't shoot flames so I know I'm not burning any fuel in the turbo.
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Old 12-05-2008, 02:15 PM
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When the throttle plate is slammed closed the CBV opens to keep the turbo from being damaged and to help keep it from stalling. When this valve opens it relieves air from the between the turbo in the intake valves.

Where it bleeds it to is back to the pipe that comes from the metering area and before the turbo suction side.

If any excess air is bled our of the system after it goes through the metering plate the motor will get to much fuel!

There is another valve on the C2T and other turbos that allows some air to escape around the throttle plate when the car decelerates. The is partially for emissions but also helps keep the turbo from stalling.

Work I and another did on our turbos resulted in the head that IA is using for more fuel. He took our head builder and ran with it. I did not pursue that strategy because there are some problems with how it changes the rate of fuel delivery. Basically that mod delivers more fuel every where along the curve. You can get it set right at idle and it will be to rich at cruse. Get it right at curse and it will be lean at idle. Yes, it dose deliver more fuel. At first we disconnected the boost circuit on the WUR because it ran to rich on boost to. It was my idea to add an rpm switch to limit the boost enrichment cycle. All that dose is add to the lag issue.

I had a programmable system that would have allowed me to tune around these issues. Now with the programmable WUR these issues should be controllable. The new programmable WUR uses a stepper motor. My system bled off pressure around the stock WUR of which I disabled the boost enrichment cycle. I no longer needed this because I had total control over my Control Pressure.

Again, half the secrets to taking the lag our of a CIS turbo is in reducing the back pressure after the turbo and getting the metering plate out of the way.

Enjoy.

My changes in how the CBV worked was icing on the cake.
Old 12-05-2008, 04:20 PM
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Here's what Paul Frere that authored Porsche 911 Story had to say about the '94 3.6 Turbo;
"The Turbo 3.3 remained in production for only two years. Meanwhile development work continued to make the turbo engine benefit from at least some of the advances made in the M64 engine, and at the beginning of 1993 the Turbo 3.6 was announced. It used, with minor modifications, the crankcase, cylinders, cylinder heads (with provision for secondary air injection and slightly thinner fins to improve the air circulation), crankshaft and connecting rods of the M64/01 engine. The pistons were new, giving a compression ratio of 7.5:1, the crankshaft torsional vibration damper was heavier, and the full flow oil filter of the 3.3 engine was adapted to the crankcase. The capacity of the air flow meter and of the injectors was raised and the maximum boost pressure was increased from .82 to 0.92 bar by using a stronger spring in the wastegate. The increased capacity, the higher boost pressure and new camshafts similar to those used in the limited series 3.3 Turbo S, gave the following timings (measured with 1 mm valve clearance):

Intake opens/closes: 2* before tdc/54* after bdc
Exhaust opens/closes: 43* before bdc/3* after bdc

Those factors were the major contributions to the power increase, which was raised from 320 to 360 PS, obtained at 5,500 rpm, with even more remarkable torque increase from 450 to 520 Nm (53 mkg or 383 lb/ft) at 4200 rpm. Without any electronic boost control, still with K-Jetronic and 7.5:1 compression ratio, the engine still lagged behind the contemporary state of the art. There is no doubt, however, that performance was (and still is at the time of writing) very impressive, as the following figures from an Auto, Motor & Sport road test indicate:

Max Speed 289 kph (179.6mph)
0-100 kph 4.6 secs
0-160 kph 9.5 secs
0-200 kph 15.0 secs
0-1000 m 22.5 secs

Impressive as these figures are, the Turbo 3.6 was still obviously a 'stop gap' model. The KE Jetronic fuel injection system was obsolete and the Porsche stood almost alone among turbocharged cars without electronically controlled boost pressure. It was quite clear that the development of a new 993 series-based Turbo model being well under way, the company's management was anxious to limit the investments related to a low volume model which had a limited life expectation."
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P

Last edited by WERK I; 12-08-2008 at 01:08 PM..
Old 12-08-2008, 09:49 AM
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I am not an expert but I think the 3.3 C2T had 7.5 CR and the 3.6 had 8 to 1 compression.

The 3.6 turbo was basically 3.3 heads and cam drilled to fit on the 3.6 block.

The only difference to the fuel delivery was a different WUR with a lower control pressure on boost.

With the 3.6 the K27-7200 was almost at its capacity limit.

The boost remained .8 with the 3.6 but the S, X33, or what ever the special works car were had boost set to .9 and received C2 normal cams, I I think the intake opened up which put it at the limint of the fueling capacity for the CP the WUR was set at.

Want a little more fuel for you 930 or 3.3 C2T, you could try the 3.6 WUR because its on boost CP was less.

The 3.6 longer stroke, increased capacity, and touch higher compression made a significant difference in drivability.

The K27-7200 was very well matched to the ability of the stock fuel head to deliver fuel unless one had a fueling strategy like Andial did with its fueler.
Old 12-08-2008, 01:02 PM
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The c2 aka 965 3.3 (engine 930/69) had 7.0:1 just like the /68 and earlier. The M64 (Turbo 3.6s) all had 7.5:1.
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Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 12-08-2008, 01:42 PM
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You'r right, you'r righ, you'r right.

The 993TT was 8/1, 3.6T 7.5/1, and 3.3 930, 7/1, 3.0 Turbo, 6.5/1.

I think that at least the 3.3 actually tested lower than spec.

Just call me rusty.
Old 12-08-2008, 02:25 PM
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I cc'd out my combustion chamber and piston and it came out right at 7.0. I put in my custom JE 8:1s and they cc'd out to 8.0 even with the twin-plugged combustion chambers. I have also heard some say the CR is not even 7.0 but lower. But the /66, /68 and /69s all have the same heads and pistons. At least I think the heads are the same; 5 of my heads have 5/91 DoM, but one is an '88 or '89, and it has slightly different shaping of the spark plug recess. Otherwise identical.
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JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 12-08-2008, 03:31 PM
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I cc'd out my combustion chamber and piston and it came out right at 7.0. I put in my custom JE 8:1s and they cc'd out to 8.0 even with the twin-plugged combustion chambers. I have also heard some say the CR is not even 7.0 but lower. But the /66, /68 and /69s all have the same heads and pistons. At least I think the heads are the same; 5 of my heads have 5/91 DoM, but one is an '88 or '89, and it has slightly different shaping of the spark plug recess. Otherwise identical.
Check your exhaust port size as I think the C2 Turbo exhaust ports may be 2 mm bigger than the earlier 930/6x series of heads. M30/69 exh 36mm vs. 930/6x exh 34mm. Intakes are the same.
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Old 12-08-2008, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
Check your exhaust port size as I think the C2 Turbo exhaust ports may be 2 mm bigger than the earlier 930/6x series of heads. M30/69 exh 36mm vs. 930/6x exh 34mm. Intakes are the same.
Dang I thought I was special! Yup mine are 36mm.
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JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 12-08-2008, 05:03 PM
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930's were 36mm exhaust until 3.6T when it went to 38.

The intake ports were larger on the 3.0 turbos than any after including the 3.6.

Some think Porsche made the intakes smaller for better low end power or to restrict the net power that could be made.

I suspect it had more to do with emissions. The smaller ports were needed to get a better mix of the fuel and air. The SC did the same thing and it had the domes on the pistons that helped create swirl where the turbo could not.

Want to make more power, open up the intake ports to 36mm. It will be easier for the air to get into the motor and will not hurt you low end at all.

Not worth it unless going in anyway. Many have made 400hp with stock cams, ports and the right inter-cooler, turbo and muffler.
Old 12-08-2008, 05:04 PM
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Dang I thought I was special! Yup mine are 36mm.
What I wonder about is that 6th head......does it have 36mm exh ports or 34mm?
Don't worry, you're still "special"!
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Old 12-08-2008, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
If any excess air is bled our of the system after it goes through the metering plate the motor will get to much fuel!
Got any data to support that?
Look at this: Wastegate Pops w. Flame at High RPM Shift?
No one's complaining that they're destroying their turbo here.
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'91 964 Turbo
Port matched, SC cams, K27/K29 turbo, Roush Performance custom headers w/Tial MV-S dual wastegates, Rarlyl8 muffler, LWFW, GT2 clutch & PP, BL wur, factory RS shifter, RS mounts, FVD timing mod, Big Reds, - 210 lb
Old 12-08-2008, 05:30 PM
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