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some winter mods to my 965

i thinking of doing some mods this winter

i have a 965 3.3

and i plan to mount 964 cams
LWflywheel
and FVD Ignition Sensor Holder

http://shop.fvd.de/us/en/Porsche-0/965_T-131/coupe/1991/item/item_details/VID_2456406-VCD_39393920-gid_34-sort_3-display_5-item_FVD999RS524A/ENGINE-Tuning-TuningKits-FVD999RS524A-Ignition-Sensor-Holder-min.93-Octane-Rating.html


any one here have mount the fvd sensor holder?
what are my options for LWflywheels?
how about thos 964 cams i have heard that they are better than the SC cams?
Old 11-30-2008, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spjuvern View Post
i thinking of doing some mods this winter

i have a 965 3.3

and i plan to mount 964 cams
LWflywheel
and FVD Ignition Sensor Holder

http://shop.fvd.de/us/en/Porsche-0/965_T-131/coupe/1991/item/item_details/VID_2456406-VCD_39393920-gid_34-sort_3-display_5-item_FVD999RS524A/ENGINE-Tuning-TuningKits-FVD999RS524A-Ignition-Sensor-Holder-min.93-Octane-Rating.html


any one here have mount the fvd sensor holder?
No idea, sorry.

Quote:
what are my options for LWflywheels?
You could talk to Patrick Motorsports http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/ or JB Racing, http://www.jbracing.com/flywheel-porscheul1.php either of whom can probably do anything you want. If you're in Europe (guessing), you might talk to these folks:

http://www.helix-autosport.com/motorsport.asp

Quote:
how about thos 964 cams i have heard that they are better than the SC cams?
My $0.02.

In comparison to SC cams, 964 cams will cost you more low to mid-range torque (aka off-boost response) and deliver only a tiny bit more top-end in return.

According to John "camgrinder" Doherty and others. Either would be a huge improvement on factory 930 cams.

If you are building a race motor, you probably want something hotter than 964 anyway, otherwise SC seems to be the sweet spot for a street-driven car.
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'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.

Last edited by spuggy; 11-30-2008 at 10:53 AM.. Reason: fixed the quote
Old 11-30-2008, 10:53 AM
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spjuvern,
I have never seen the FVD ignition sensor holder. I like the concept. If you try it and notice any improvement, please let us know.

I have recently installed the LWFW and the difference is less than I thought but it is all good. The engine revs much faster and shifting is taking a little getting used to. I received my parts at Patrick Motorsports. Talk to Brian Day, tell him Mark from Virginia spoke with you. This modification cost about $2500, but I feel that is was worth it since the Euro cars came this way, ours were meant to be the same.

As far as the cams go, what kind of "mods" are you looking for? The 964 cams will improve your performance. There was a performance option for the turbo "option X33" that lists cam numbers 930 105 147 50 and 930 105 148 50. That would be the ultimate cam upgrade I would go with.

Thanks,
Mark
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Last edited by lucittm; 12-17-2008 at 11:58 AM..
Old 11-30-2008, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by lucittm View Post
spjuvern,
but I feel that is was worth it since the Euro cars came this way, ours were meant to be the same.
Mark, only the Turbo S came with an RS hybrid lightweight flywheel. All other Turbos came from the factory with the dual mass flywheel.
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'91 964 Turbo
Port matched, SC cams, K27/K29 turbo, Roush Performance custom headers w/Tial MV-S dual wastegates, Rarlyl8 muffler, LWFW, GT2 clutch & PP, BL wur, factory RS shifter, RS mounts, FVD timing mod, Big Reds, - 210 lb
Old 11-30-2008, 06:24 PM
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Paul,
You are correct.

I read in Adrian Streather's book that the Turbo S was a RoW car and of the 80 or 81 cars delivered in 1992, none came to North America. The Turbo S2 was actually built by Andial and 20 that they built started out as standard 964 Turbos.

So, I meant to say that the 964 Turbo cars that had the LWFW were only available in Europe. And I think that is a shame. Something about the EPA or DOT and the noise threshold inside the car...

Thanks for setting me straight on this.

Mark
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Old 11-30-2008, 07:06 PM
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I read here and other places the SC cam gives low end power, while the 964 cam give upper end power. Depending on your needs, you can go with either one.

To go any more aggresive would require the pistons to have valve reliefs.
Old 11-30-2008, 08:34 PM
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Two people have recommended SC/ 964 cams. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the upgrade to either SC or 964 cams would only apply to a 930, not a 965 like spjuvern has.

My understanding is that the factory cam grind for a 965 is the same as the 930 as evidenced by the part numbers:

1991 Turbo
965 Left 930-105-143-03
965 Right 930-105-246-00 This cam contains the extension for the power steering hub

1989 Turbo
930 Left 930-105-143-03
930 Right 930-105-142-03

The SC does have different part numbers indicating a different profile:
1989 Carrera Left 930-105-147-10
1989 Carrera Right 930-105-148-10

It would be interesting to see a table with the lift/duration of these cams. So far, I have not found one.

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucittm View Post
Two people have recommended SC/ 964 cams. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the upgrade to either SC or 964 cams would only apply to a 930, not a 965 like spjuvern has.
The 965 engine, which is the carried-over 930 engine with small enhancements, would accept SC cams but the right hand cam would need the drive nose for the power steering sprocket.

The debate about which cam profile's superiority goes on without end on the board here and also on Rennlist. I find it interesting that the factory chose the 964 cam for the 1993 Turbo S lightweight that I mentioned earlier.

My opinion is that since the 7/1 static compression ratio makes for sluggish off-boost performance, I'd go the 964 route to make on-boost performance all the more fun. Having said that, my car pulls to the redline nicely with stock cams and turbo so how much better would 964 cams really be?
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'91 964 Turbo
Port matched, SC cams, K27/K29 turbo, Roush Performance custom headers w/Tial MV-S dual wastegates, Rarlyl8 muffler, LWFW, GT2 clutch & PP, BL wur, factory RS shifter, RS mounts, FVD timing mod, Big Reds, - 210 lb
Old 12-01-2008, 03:09 PM
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While I have not had my engine torn down, I "believe" based on what I have been told, that my 1992 3.3 has SC cams. Now, with that being said, it is also twin plugged, and the case has been apart, so I am not sure what else has been done, but it goes like a raped ape.

I also have a Tial, headers, crank fired ignition, etc, so mine isn't lightly modded.

Bill
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Old 12-01-2008, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BSiple View Post
While I have not had my engine torn down, I "believe" based on what I have been told, that my 1992 3.3 has SC cams. Now, with that being said, it is also twin plugged, and the case has been apart, so I am not sure what else has been done, but it goes like a raped ape.
Bill, where does it excel; low or high rpm or everywhere?
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'91 964 Turbo
Port matched, SC cams, K27/K29 turbo, Roush Performance custom headers w/Tial MV-S dual wastegates, Rarlyl8 muffler, LWFW, GT2 clutch & PP, BL wur, factory RS shifter, RS mounts, FVD timing mod, Big Reds, - 210 lb
Old 12-01-2008, 07:16 PM
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A C2T is a great car out of the box.

The stock K27 7200 turbo is good unit. Taking the cat/muffler off, keeping the stock secondary muffler and setting the boost for .9 makes for a strong runner making about 360hp.

Cams are a work around for the real issue which is the small intake ports that were required to help with air fuel mixing on CIS to better meet smog requirements.

Going to an SC or S2 (C2) cam lowers the effective compression ratio and can hurt pre boost performance to gain on boost performance. This is well matched with a bigger turbo that runs more efficiently up top but that also hurts low end. More boost is not the answer. The more efficient turbo heats the compressed air less and makes more power. Note that the K27-7200 can start to run out of boost up top. That is not a big deal as there is not enoght fuel to support much more anyway with out a fueling strategy.

The S2 had bigger ports, C2 cams, and a special turbo that had the same compressor wheel as the K27-7200 but had a bigger hot side turbine wheel to lower back pressure and heat for track events. It also had a bigger core installed in the inter-cooler.

If one wants to go to cams the best approach is to bump the compression a little by shaving the heads 1mm, and open up the intake ports. The bump in compression helps make up for the loss of effective compression with the more aggressive cams. (A part of the 94 3.6 Turbos magic comes from its higher compression.)

Add to that a cat bypass on the C2T that keeps the stock muffler in the right fender and set boost to .9 bar and you have a great running car.

The secret to better throttle response lies in the WUR. Look into a vacuum sensing WUR (Rice Fueler). This instantly reduces control pressure with acceleration allowing the metering plate to move quicker. I did this electronically with my C2T with a frequency valve and a special controller I plumbed around the WUR and it made for a lot better throttle response.

If I ever get another C2T I will just put on the cat bypas, set the boost at .9bar, mod the WUR and put a set of C4 normal gears in place of 2-5.

This would make it a rocket ship.
Old 12-01-2008, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
A C2T is a great car out of the box.




The S2 had bigger ports, C2 cams, and a special turbo that had the same compressor wheel as the K27-7200 but had a bigger hot side turbine wheel to lower back pressure and heat for track events. It also had a bigger core installed in the inter-cooler.

The secret to better throttle response lies in the WUR. Look into a vacuum sensing WUR (Rice Fueler). This instantly reduces control pressure with acceleration allowing the metering plate to move quicker. I did this electronically with my C2T with a frequency valve and a special controller I plumbed around the WUR and it made for a lot better throttle response.

If I ever get another C2T I will just put on the cat bypas, set the boost at .9bar, mod the WUR and put a set of C4 normal gears in place of 2-5.

This would make it a rocket ship.

by S2 do you mean 964 turbo S? do you mean 3,3 och 3,6?

do you have some pics and more info about your WUR fix that sound intresting
Old 12-02-2008, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
A C2T is a great car out of the box.

The stock K27 7200 turbo is good unit. Taking the cat/muffler off, keeping the stock secondary muffler and setting the boost for .9 makes for a strong runner making about 360hp.
Gee, I thought mine was a little too tame out of the box.
I know of someone over on Rennlist with headers, no cat and .9 bar that is making 350 RWHP (approximately 390 FWHP).
The stock muffler makes a great cork as I found out when I went to a RarlyL8 muffler. The stock muffler also makes a great doorstop at 25 lb. but I won't go on showering it with praise
Are you certain about the Turbo S (the 3.3L one) having ported heads? There isn't much information about the 3.3L car around. Everything I've seen only said it has 964 cams, polished intake ports and a stock K27 running at .9 bar.
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'91 964 Turbo
Port matched, SC cams, K27/K29 turbo, Roush Performance custom headers w/Tial MV-S dual wastegates, Rarlyl8 muffler, LWFW, GT2 clutch & PP, BL wur, factory RS shifter, RS mounts, FVD timing mod, Big Reds, - 210 lb
Old 12-02-2008, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lucittm View Post

I read in Adrian Streather's book .....
Unfortunately, about 50% of what Adrian has in his book with regard to Turbos is inaccurate. Seems like when he didn't know something he made stuff up and published it.
As for the Turbo S, what he wrote about it is pretty much in the public domain already so he got that right.
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'91 964 Turbo
Port matched, SC cams, K27/K29 turbo, Roush Performance custom headers w/Tial MV-S dual wastegates, Rarlyl8 muffler, LWFW, GT2 clutch & PP, BL wur, factory RS shifter, RS mounts, FVD timing mod, Big Reds, - 210 lb
Old 12-02-2008, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 911nut View Post
Gee, I thought mine was a little too tame out of the box.
I know of someone over on Rennlist with headers, no cat and .9 bar that is making 350 RWHP (approximately 390 FWHP).
The stock muffler makes a great cork as I found out when I went to a RarlyL8 muffler. The stock muffler also makes a great doorstop at 25 lb. but I won't go on showering it with praise
Are you certain about the Turbo S (the 3.3L one) having ported heads? There isn't much information about the 3.3L car around. Everything I've seen only said it has 964 cams, polished intake ports and a stock K27 running at .9 bar.
The only TurboS I know of was the 3.6. The S2 was a different animal as noted above. It was a build by Andial. I would not bet the farm on the porting but I am pretty sure. The S2 also had a thicker core welded in by Andial.

On the C2T the cat/muffler is the dog. The muffler in the pasanger rear fender is not restrictive and you can pass a tennis ball through it.

My belive is the C2 and most the turbos do not need headers. The magic is eliminating as much back pressure as possable after the turbine wheel.

It is my belife that the B&B has a poor wastgate design that tricks the wastgate into providing higher boost than intended. When I had my C2T several of us that ran Tial WG's that had to use lower boost springs to get the boost we wanted. We were running biger turbos and with small turbines and that migh have contribuited to the issue. I think I may have run a .7 bar or somthing. I changed back to the K27-7200 as it comes in much faster and harder. The big turbo was like a normally asperated car and built power progressively.

I still think the magic on a C2T is a vac sensing WIR, cat bypass, and gears from a C2/4 3.6. The stock first is tall and expensive to change our but putting 2-5 in it makes for a closer range gear box that keeps you in boost and the power band between shifts.

I also changed the orintation of my custom compressor bypass valve. It was open all the time and slamed shut only when I lost vacunm with acceleration for instant boost. My boost stayed at over .8bar between shifts with no compressor stall.

When I was done with that car is almost ran like an EFI car with little lag. Most of that was because I had control over the CIS control presure using the frequency valve plumbed around it and a specal controler that sensed manifold vac/boost and rpm and was mapable.

Boy I miss that car.
Old 12-02-2008, 07:59 PM
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:24 PM
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here are the diffrents in gear ratio C4 to the left and turbo to the right
speed in Km/h

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads14/utv1228297221.jpg[/img]



it seams nice but mabye litle to slow top speed[img]
Old 12-03-2008, 01:41 AM
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here are the diffrents in gear ratio C4 to the left and turbo to the right
speed in Km/h





it seams nice but mabye litle to slow top speed
Old 12-03-2008, 01:41 AM
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I found I drove on the freeway in 4th most of the time in my 91 C2T. It is geared very long.

If you plot the rpm drops on a stock C2T trans against the C2 or C4 gears set in 2-5 it can be a solid improvement.

I have read of a couple of 6 speed conversion and they have raved about it. A 6 sp euro RS would be way cool.
Old 12-03-2008, 07:28 AM
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Looking at your gear charts on a stock C2T trans the rpms drop to about 3500rpm on a stock 1 2 shift.

With a C4 second you would come in at 4300 rpm. That 700 rpm between 3500 and 4200 is not a very powerfull part of the HP curve.

Used set of C2 or 4 gears should not be to much if one looks around.



There is a difference in a some of the gears between a C2 and C4. I think the C4 is a bit lower.
Old 12-03-2008, 07:42 AM
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