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Miller Woods Turbo Group micro-fueler

Anyone have any info on this? I couldn't find anything doing a search. It was listed as one of the motor up grades on this car. http://www.accumoto.com/index.cfm?template=catalog&form_product=843
Old 12-03-2008, 07:35 AM
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It's an additional injector controller. Sometimes used to trigger the cold start valve, or an added injector above the throttle body.
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Old 12-03-2008, 07:59 AM
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Old 12-03-2008, 08:34 AM
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It means the car is still running CIS and they have run out of fuel, so they squirt fuel in (like Mike said) where the intercooler and throttle body meet. Problem is the intake is supposed to just run air and dumping fuel in here doesn't allow for even fuel distribution between cylinders, you may have one cylinder getting plenty of extra fuel and another getting none, it usually ends up with a hole in a piston. They are not a good option

This is my old one



and this is the kind of fuel curve you get



Granted my car wasn't running well at the time, does anyone want to buy the micro fueler off me
Old 12-03-2008, 08:49 AM
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If it works right they do a OK job. The 7th injector mixes the atomized fuel with the forced air for distribution to the intake system. Many old modded for street cars used them. There are better ways to get it done but back then your options were limited unless you could afford it. When used you sort of have a carburetted/ fuel injected turbo. That 7th injector could not be working right especially if has not been cleaned or it is the wrong size for the build/tune like 39 lb vs a 83 lb etc.

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Old 12-03-2008, 01:58 PM
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Granted my car wasn't running well at the time, does anyone want to buy the micro fueler off me [/QUOTE]

I might,how much?
Old 12-03-2008, 02:03 PM
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This is similar to the Andial fuel enrichment system? I had one on my car which we removed when I had the engine rebuild.
Old 12-03-2008, 02:09 PM
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Nope, As I understand it ( in lay mans terms ) the Andial uses the existing CIS injection to electronicly create a rich cold start situation to deliver more fuel. The turbo fuelers ( there are a few brands ) use a additional 7th injecter that you can use different size injectors to supplement your CIS fuel delivery capacity. Albiet not as accurately as in port fuel delivery.

Last edited by voitureltd; 12-03-2008 at 04:41 PM..
Old 12-03-2008, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
Nope, As I understand it ( in lay mans terms ) the Andial uses the existing CIS injection to electronicly create a rich cold start situation to deliver more fuel. The turbo fuelers ( there are a few brands ) use a additional 7th injecter that you can use different size injectors to supplement your CIS fuel delivery capacity. Albiet not as accurately as in port fuel delivery.
Not correct, the way the CIS works with regards to cold start "through the main injectors" is via the bimetallic spring in the WUR, when there is no current going through the spring the WUR is set to create low control pressure (rich mixture), as the spring warms up it moves and raises the control pressure (leans out the mixture). The control pressure is then related to MAP, on cruise the control pressure is high, when on boost the control pressure lowers to richen the mixture.
I'm not entirely sure how the andial works but i was under the impression that it triggers the cold start injector which is essentially the same as having a 7th (single) injector. It is commonly accepted by all the major tuners out there that this type of fuel enrichment is bad news, you do not get controlled distribution between cylinders and run the risk of one or more of the cylinders running lean.
Porsche obviously deemed this safe to aid in a cold start situation, there is no risk there, but used to add more fuel whilst at WOT is not good practice.

Make me an offer for the fueler, it's never going back on my car anyway. BTW, this was fitted to my car by a "professional" tuner, it transpires the man is a clown so I'm not surprised the fueling is all over the place. Only fit one of these things if you don't give a **** about your engine, otherwise reduce the power of your engine until you can afford to get fuel in there properly.
Old 12-04-2008, 03:22 AM
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The Andial system works in conjuction w/ the control pressure. It is another frequency valve and is plumbed inline with the lambda valve. The problem I understand w/ it was it used a hobbs pressure switch and was sort of on/off at a certain boost level, over 1 bar I believe.

It wasn't a terrible idea if refined a little. I don't see why one couldn't power the lambda valve through an RPM switch so it only kicked in at high boost/higher rpm like the leask setup.

For that matter, you could use a combination of the miller micro unit and the andial setup, (add another frequency valve) and instead of controlling a 7th injector, you could control another lambda valve, to lower the control pressure when needed.

I think "911st?" mentions a system like this on his old car w/ great results. I'm not sure of the adjusting parameters of the micro fueler, but a modern AIC(additional injector controller) from one of the rice tuner houses probably has all the functions required to make a reliable enrichment system that was relavent to boost and rpm, and possible provide the acceleration enrichment to improve throttle response...

JBL930, who makes that unit pictured? and what would you take for it?
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Old 12-04-2008, 05:47 AM
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Mike, surely now that we have access to an adjustable WUR then we have complete control over the control pressure, you can lower the control pressure for on boost enrichment as low as it can possibly go (basically when lowering the control pressure further doesn't result in richer AFR's then you are at the end), then delay the enrichment until it's needed with the use of the RPM controlled solenoid. Another device in the loop to try and lower the control pressure further wouldn't be of any use as you've reached the limit, the only avenue available after the stock fuel head has run out of fuel is to modify the fuel head, once this has run out of fuel then you are right at the limit of what the CIS can possibly deliver.

This is the outfit that supplies the fueler i have http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/mf2/mf2.html
Mine would come with the braided fuel line, the injector and bracket etc, don't know what it's worth, make me an offer
Old 12-04-2008, 06:04 AM
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It seems the adjustable WUR is tried and true. I haven't used one. But I do read alot about people constantly tinkering w/ it set it initially and then adjust for varying weather conditions. I was just pondering the chance of using aother system w/ a stock WUR that would so the same thing, without as much adjustment, at least, not pulling the WUR on and off a dozen times to make adjustments, If you had a cockpit mounted control unit for "the other device" that was laptop programable, it would be a little easier, but at that point, you may as well get the digi-WUR... At least there are multiple options...

I don't really need the fueler, I was just curious, I maintain several 930's for others but do not have my own, yet...
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Old 12-04-2008, 06:22 AM
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The Hobbs switch supplied by Andial activates the fuel enrichment system at 0.6 bar boost pressure and you are correct, Mike, the system is either on or off depending on boost pressure but the supplied frequency valve does provide limited fueling adjustment.
Old 12-04-2008, 07:12 AM
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JBL930 & others, My understanding of the Andial system " in layman's terms" that it is controlled electronically and uses the existing fuel delivery system ( however this is achieved. after all is said and done, that is how it works ) to feed fuel through the existing 6 injectors. The 7th injector systems are a additional fuel injection source ( functions similar to a carburetter by adding atomized fuel up steam from the ports ) ) once the cis is maxed out to get additional fuel to the cylinders. As I mentioned it is by no means as accurate as fuel rails, Brian Leaske etc, however it has been used for many years. So we don't become revisionists, I have a few cars with it ( A twin plug built by Andial when they still built street motors), and now has quite a few miles on it and no problems so they can't be all bad if done right with complimenting upgrades. Andial, as some of you may know, built some of the last 935 comp cars and they were very fast / successful. As I mention there are better ways to do it since 1984 but especially if someone is not dumping lots of bucks and it is street used, much better than nothing. I just got a new Miller Woods on ebay with a buy it now $50 bucks. See the "k27anyone?" thread. JBL930, I could always use another if it is comlpete, Will that get yours sent to me ?

Last edited by voitureltd; 12-04-2008 at 11:49 AM..
Old 12-04-2008, 09:11 AM
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I use a cold start valve from a 911SC as a 7th injector, plumbed in about 6" before the throttle body for good atomization, I use a MSD Rpm switch to fire it at 6,000, and that is wired to a pressure switch so that it will only fire at 6,000 RPM on boost. Simple cheap effective.
My A/R's would start to creep from 12 up to 13 around 6,000, now when the injector fires it drops to 11.5
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:04 AM
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I've noticed on some that have this 7th injector system that the RPM threshold varies so some turbo fuelers from the past may differ. I have never added one yet as the ones I've had came with the cars. Sounds like you reinvented the wheel but that it works well, as intended. Although there are mixed reviews by some, I would think the fuel air mixture would be fairly equal to all cylinders as the mixture is pumped under pressure with the turbo and they all get filled until the intake valve closes. On the ones Ive tested the 11.5 +/- 3 AFR should be in the safety margins even if the additional fuel mixture would vary slightly from one cylinder to the other. Of course there are those who do not service the system or use high boost/ low octane, may have problems.
Old 12-04-2008, 12:18 PM
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MF2 that is the

little device we used before we went EFI. We had a RussCollins 1000 cc injector just above the throttle house, it was controlled by manifold air pressure set to 0.9 bar, we used EGT and a broad band lambda to monitor it.

The ports are bigger, 41 mm intake and 38 mm exhaust and the intake manifold was ported to 41 mm.

We noticed no problem at all, with that system, the AFR was pretty good, although not perfect but good. The car pulled extremely well, at 1.2 bar we had 530 Hp, with 0.8 bar and no extra fuel around 410 Hp but the AFR was way to low at the top rpm and full load (0.8 bar), so the car seemed to go much better and had better EGT and AFR with a higher turbo load and the extra fuel from the 7th injector, than with only CIS, wich had a modifyed WUR, and 0.8 bar load.

But we wanted to reach a higher level of power and driveability so thererfore we went EFI.

We think that if you make some effort to make the right position of the 7th injector and monitor it with EGT or broad band lambda or both you should be able to increase the power in your engine in a rather cheap way. With good AFR and EGT

And note that this is our experience with this device, and we can only speak for us in this matter.
Old 12-04-2008, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
JBL930, I could always use another if it is comlpete, Will that get yours sent to me ?
I am in the UK so i would have to see what it would cost to send it, what do you think it's worth? Send me a PM if you like, or e-mail me at jon@kigi.co.uk
Old 12-05-2008, 06:00 AM
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Man what a waste. All 7th injectors are a waste of effort - real gains from additional fuel from *the actual injectors* in the form of a fuel head / WUR line of thought are much more reasonable.
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Old 12-05-2008, 08:40 AM
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