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Opinions on whats causing the smoke.

First off I did a search and found a bunch of info. I verified the check ball oil flow restrictor is in place under the banjo bolt and that the scavenge pump is functioning.

Background: 1986 930 that has the og 3LDZ. Did an oil change, warmed the car up with a drive, and made sure the oil level was halfway between the marks on the dipstick while at opearting temp (not my first oil change). Car sat overnight, then restarted in the morning. After about 10 minutes of idling, everything was good, but after a brief drive the car smoked VERY badly, definitely blue in color. Verified oil level once again and it was stil halfway between the marks. I pulled the intercooler off and saw pooled oil down in the turbo. Checked the turbine shaft and it had tons of play.

Purchased a brand new K27 HF and installed it. As per the directions it came with, I primed the oil line for about 2 minutes of total cranking time. Oil was present, so I buttoned everything up and let it idle for 5 minutes. I then let it cool down. Refired it and let idle for a few minutes and proceeded to drive it around the block w/ no boost and under 2500 rpms. The blue smoke reappeared almost as bad as before! Shut it down and let it cool.

Heres the kicker: I then let it idle for roughly 20-30 minutes with ZERO smoke, but once I brought the rpms off idle to around 1500-2000rpm, it will start puffing. I also tried letting everything cool down again, then restarted, and immediately varied the rpms from 1000-2500rpm while watching for smoke. No smoke for about the first 5 minutes, then it started to puff. Temperature related perhaps? There is NO pooled oil in the turbo and the shaft has roughly .005" of play both lateral and radial. I also cheked to ensure oil wasnt coming from the breather, all was good there, as it should be since its not overfilled. Car idles and drives normal, except for the smoke.

I called the place where I got the turbo from but they never called me back. Tomorrow I will try them again. Im a bit stumped here. Only thing I can figure is the new turbo has a seal problem.

Last edited by DailyDriven'88; 12-19-2008 at 12:53 AM..
Old 12-18-2008, 11:25 PM
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I think you may have residual oil from the old turbo in your intake track. By intake track, I mean anything from the turbo compressor side to the intake manifold. This would include the IC and and all the piping.
The other thing you could do is drop the turbo sump tank and have the turbo drain directly into a beaker and then have the turbo sump feed hose drop in inside the beaker to check to see if the sump pump is scavenging oil from the beaker. At this time you can also see the rate of flow of the oil going through your turbocharger.
Keep at it, you're on the right track......

Also, why are you idling your engine for so long?
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 12-19-2008, 05:26 AM
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Agreed

WERK-I

He is right, I just went through the same thing. Residual oil will be present for a while. Also, until you get on boost (approx. 200 miles after install) you may see this smoke.

Unless there is a constant cloud while driving (meaning it doesn't clear up) then that most likely is your problem.

Last place to check is if you have blow by from the motor. Does it run well, have you recently had a Leak-down at all? You can separate the breather pipe (the hard metal pipe that connects to a rubber hose) from where it goes into the oil tank (or oil separator) and see if there is excess oil coming from that location. If you have it spitting oil at idle, then you may have an issue and would recommend getting a leak-down immediately.

Hope this helps. Best of luck,

Bryan
Old 12-19-2008, 07:26 AM
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WERK-I : I forgot to mention I cleaned the intercooler out with a can of brake cleaner. I got quite a bit of oil out and the run off is now nice and clear. There is a slight oil film in other parts of the intake tract AFTER the turbo. This slight film was there prior to the 3LDZ going out though. I hear this is somewhat normal?

As for the scavenging pump, I was unable to set it up so it could pump the discharged oil from the turbo. Rather I let the discharged oil drain into one container, while I placed the scavenge line in a different one with fresh oil. It sucked that new oil up pretty quickly, which lead me to believe it was functioning as it should. Its only took a few seconds of scavenging for me to realise this (thats how good the rate of suction looked). I really should set it up to scavenge its own discharge though.

I also suspected it was buring off residual oil thats trapped inside the muffler. I am now doubting that due to the amount of smoke thats present and its consistency.

As for the extended idle question, I let it idle for the 20 minutes or so after I was experiencing the heavy smoke. I sat there and watched it waiting for it to smoke and it never did. By this time roughly 20 minutes had passed. Once I started to rev it, it smoked bad. Oil temps were up to about 160 at this time.



x98boardwell : The smoke does appear to be constant, this is what worries me. I can hold rpms at a constant 2500 and it just billows out. I wil check for the blow by by disconnecting the hose at the hardline. Car seems to run well, a leak down has not been performed.

Last edited by DailyDriven'88; 12-19-2008 at 10:18 AM..
Old 12-19-2008, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DailyDriven'88 View Post
WERK-I : I forgot to mention I cleaned the intercooler out with a can of brake cleaner. I got quite a bit of oil out and the run off is now nice and clear. There is a slight oil film in other parts of the intake tract AFTER the turbo. This slight film was there prior to the 3LDZ going out though. I hear this is somewhat normal?

As for the scavenging pump, I was unable to set it up so it could pump the discharged oil from the turbo. Rather I let the discharged oil drain into one container, while I placed the scavenge line in a different one with fresh oil. It sucked that new oil up pretty quickly, which lead me to believe it was functioning as it should. Its only took a few seconds of scavenging for me to realise this (thats how good the rate of suction looked). I really should set it up to scavenge its own discharge though.
.................................................. .......
There will be somewhat of a film, but it should not be wet to the touch. If I understand you correctly, you do not have the scavenge pump connected to the outlet of the turbocharger yet. This may be the problem. The scavenge pump will always scavenge more oil than the turbocharger outputs. Could you be putting more oil back in the oil tank from the "fresh oil" container than is exiting from the turbocharger outlet? This would result in the oil in the tank overfilling and entering into the breather tract of the intake.
Also, I supplied a couple of pics from another thread which illustrates how much oil should not and should be exiting the outlet of the turbocharger. Not very scientific, but you get the idea.

Excessive:



Just right:
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Old 12-19-2008, 11:01 AM
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In regrads to the pump, it was disconnected momentarily to test its funtion after the smoking issue appeared. I also came across those exact 2 pics during my search. The discharge of oil @ idle is exactly like the second pic, so it doesnt appear to be 'excessive.' I did not rev the engine so I dont know what the discharge is above idle. From my untrained eye, the scavenge did appear to 'suck' more than what the discharge rate, so thats interesting that you mentioned that. It took less than 5 seconds with the engine idling for me to make these observations..thats how obvious things were. I did not let the scavenge pump intake too much oil, I was well aware of what could happen.

As far as oil film goes, its not like it leaves my finger tips oily as heck..but since there is a film it is detectable if you wipe a paper towel on the inside surface. It does not soak the paper towel.

I briefly restarted the car a short while ago to move it and no smoke was present. I rev'd it a bit (kept under 2500) and still no smoke. I am pretty darn confident though that if the car is able to warm up a bit, it will start smoking. For the neighbors sake, I did not let it warm up.

Just in case there is confusion, the engine smokes constant ONCE it starts to blow smoke (sounds kind of confusing). So far there has been zero smoke upon restarts and somewhat long periods of idling. But once the engine is rev'd and the smoke begins, the smoke will not quit even when letting it idle after. If i shut it down, wait a while, then restart and idle, no smoke.

Last edited by DailyDriven'88; 12-19-2008 at 11:45 AM..
Old 12-19-2008, 11:40 AM
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Update: I said to myself fukc it, I'll let it warm up and drive the car for a while. Oil temp got up to 190 and the smoke has greatly reduced! I hope all is well but I dont want to get too happy too soon. I hope to do the 100 mile break in very soon.
Old 12-19-2008, 12:35 PM
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Excellent news! We'll keep our fingers crossed it's nothing more serious!
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:54 PM
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Dave - there seems to be an oil-ghost dressed in a black tux in your pitcher. I have gremlins in mine and not quite as formal.
Old 12-20-2008, 05:56 AM
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Dave - there seems to be an oil-ghost dressed in a black tux in your pitcher. I have gremlins in mine and not quite as formal.
LOL!!

Don,
How are things going? Have you thought any more on the subject of your valve-valve guide failure? Was it excessive combustion temps, oiling/cooling issues in the heads/valve train, valve guide material ineffectiveness, or something else?

btw, I've got the pitcher of your dreams! Seems more appropriate in your case.



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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:46 AM
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Another update: So far Ive put about 40 miles on it and still no obvious smoke. There are a few other issues with the car like hesitation/sputtering down low just above 2000 rpm but I think thats another problem for a different day. Right now, Im just glad the 1700$ turbo seems to be ok.
Old 12-20-2008, 04:22 PM
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I'm thinking oil in the intake/exhaust system. It doesn't take much to make it look like a mosquito sprayer and it may have just taken awhile to burn it out.

Also, at idle it may not have gotten hot enough to burn any oil in the HEs or muffler. Once you start revving the engine, things get hot quicker.
Old 12-20-2008, 04:46 PM
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Exactly my thoughts too rocket.
Old 12-20-2008, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DailyDriven'88 View Post
Another update: So far Ive put about 40 miles on it and still no obvious smoke. There are a few other issues with the car like hesitation/sputtering down low just above 2000 rpm but I think thats another problem for a different day. Right now, Im just glad the 1700$ turbo seems to be ok.
You probably should change out those spark plugs. They are likely to be carbon fouled from the oil residual.
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'85 930 Factory Special Wishes Flachbau
Werk I Zuffenhausen 3.3l/330BHP Engine with Sonderwunsch Cams, FabSpeed Headers, Kokeln IC, Twin Plugged Electromotive Crankfire, Tial Wastegate(0.8 Bar), K27 Hybrid Turbo, Ruf Twin-tip Muffler, Fikse FM-5's 8&10x17, 8:41 R&P
Old 12-20-2008, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by WERK-I View Post
You probably should change out those spark plugs. They are likely to be carbon fouled from the oil residual.

I did pull out the center cylinder ones from both sides and they actually looked ok. Nothing too abnormal. Its probably in need of an ignition tune up though (cap, rotor etc).

I put another 60 miles on it and all appears to be well. I can almost start rolling into the boost.
Old 12-21-2008, 01:13 AM
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