Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Technical BBS > 1- Porsche Technical Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: St. George Utah
Posts: 194
Garage
What is you opinion on headers

After almost a year, I am just about finished re-building and doing some performance upgrades, cams, dual plugs, work on fuel distributor, and a Kokeln inter-cooler on my 3.3. My final 2 items are the headers and Turbo, looking at the 7200 for the turbo. What is your opinion on the best for your buck headers. I am needing both, turbo and headers so if you have either one of these Items for sale let me know. Thanks
Old 12-21-2008, 08:04 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 6,878
I have the GHLs which I like. Service and warranty are excellent. I've not heard good things about B&B, especially service/warranty. Maybe it's changed?

Bang for the buck might be Going Super Fast headers. No experience, but others here have some.

What ever header/turbo combo you go with, clean the header tubes like your life depended on it. Clean, scrub, run a chain through them, etc. The last thing you want us a piece of debris to break off and ruin that new turbo. Better yet, Kevin at Ultimate reccomends you use your old turbo when breaking in that engine.

I wish I had listened to him the first time!!!!
Old 12-21-2008, 08:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: St. George Utah
Posts: 194
Garage
I have heard good and bad about B&B, good pretty much about GHL, and I have a 7006 turbo that I will use to start out on the new motor, thanks for telling me about that, I probably would have put a new 7200 on to begin with. Thanks for your input.
Old 12-21-2008, 08:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,258
Garage
Headers are a poor return on inverstment, to a point.
If you are using a 7200 then your engine will not greatly benefit from headers. I say that because the power output is not at the level where headers become a significant contributing factor in the engine package as a whole.
They are a worthy contributor to driveability when compared to the stock H/E system.
Will they help, yes. Is the help worth the cost, probably not if you buy good headers. Good headers cost >$1500. GFS/OBX = same thing = junk (in my opinion). I cannot tell you how many problems I have had with exhaust fitment where these headers are installed. Some have even cut up the headers and re-welded to get them to fit right. Some have had them fit right with no problems. It's a $400 quality control crap shoot that can cost you $1500 if a turbo gets destroyed. Shrapnell can break loose at any time, no guarantees that the 7006 will take the bullit. And if it does will you be confident that all is now good and you can put on the 7200?
If you do buy the value engineered headers follow Rocket's advice and de-bur them.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 12-21-2008, 09:08 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: St. George Utah
Posts: 194
Garage
I always enjoy reading your responses Rarly, say if I were to go with the high flow turbo, would headers be more beeificial, it's a toss up between turbos, and from what you have said the 7200 I don't think is going be the best one to use. Probably would be if I was using stock cams, and not had work done on the fuel dist. to accommodate the dual plugs and cams. Seems like the 7200 is just the first step above stock.
Old 12-21-2008, 10:03 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: St. George Utah
Posts: 194
Garage
Rarly I think the best thing for me to do first is get a hold of, Brian at ultimatemotorwerks, give him the info on the cams, and the modification done on the fuel dist, and see what turbo he recommends. Every thing I have done is going to be a waste of time and money if I don't use the proper turbo, and hate doing the old hit and miss, specially when using my money. Correct me if I am wrong re; Brian
Old 12-21-2008, 10:27 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
Now Available for Ordering:   101 Projects For Your BMW 3 Series 1982-2000  [more info]
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,258
Garage
Others should chime in with their turbo choices. Do call Kevin at UMW.
You can have your cake and eat it too using modern turbos.
If you have done head work, have the fuel head mod, cams, etc. then you should look at the K27HF. That turbo with the mods listed will get you 400HP to the wheels. And yes, at that point I would spend the $1500+ on headers.
With headers, K27HF, cams, head work, fuel head mod, WUR mod, and a lot of tuning it is possible to see 1.0bar all in at 2600rpm, 400WHP and ~21mpg on the highway.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 12-22-2008, 06:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
930gt-40r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 2,063
+1 on not going for China headers- at one of the races down Long Wharf in New Haven I saw a Mitsubishi leave the turbo and down pipe on the ground because an OBX header just let loose.
There are many options for turbo headers- I myself have a set of B&B's and they SUCK! Their customer service sucks, their headers suck, they just suck! (P.S I don't mean to insult any dealers, but the company itself sucks...) I hear that GHLs are a good bet and I know they heat very well. You could also go for a set of new or used SSI's with the turbo cross-over pipe and still have heat. If heat is not your thing, then try the Schnell headers that are offered by performance products, only from a different vendor.
Long story short- you are going to spend more than $2,000 on a new set of B&Bs or GHLs, and maybe around $1,500 (don't quote me on the SSI's) on the SSI setup if you want heat, If you don't need heat, you could try a set of Schnell headers for less money (I think around $600 from somewhere).
When I say this is one of the few times that I disagree with Brian it is one of a few- Headers on these cars make a night and day difference to me. If I had the choice between a k27 and stock headers or aftermarket headers (B&B, GHL, Schnell, etc) with a stock k26- I would take the headers. Now I'm not saying they are the best bang for the buck since nitrous, but they most definitely transform the car's attitude in my opinion.
__________________
Kris @ Tech9
86' 930/GT-40R Sold
94' Rustang GT daily (long gone)
2008 C6/Z51 Corvette
Old 12-22-2008, 07:21 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 13
I am using a GSF headers and it is true that it was few problems to fit properly, but when it fits, works ok (I have the GSF since two years).

For me, It is worth every dollar that you spend on it. The car becomes more responsive at low speeds, and the lag decrease (about 1.000 rpm).

I am talking about my car: 965 with SC cams, no cat, K27-7200 and 1 bar.
Old 12-22-2008, 08:01 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: St. George Utah
Posts: 194
Garage
When I started this project my goals were more HP, but wanted to get 80 to 100,000 miles out of the motor, didn't want to get too radical. So I had the casing drilled and pinned, new pistons and fully finned cylinders, pistons and heads teflon coated, dual plugs, performance cams, fuel head modified, Kokeln inter-cooler, turbo, and boost control. Just sold my backup Porsche a 911 Carrera, now I am Porsche-less untill I finish the Turbo. Hate spending another $2000 for headers and not really gaining that much unless more modifications were done like Rarly pointed out, but headers do help. Maybe keep my eye out for a good used set, see them every once in a while here, and just get the Turbo on the road, hate it being Porsche-less. If anyone has a good used set for an 89, I would be very interested. Thank you all for your input and have a Merry Christmas
Old 12-22-2008, 11:18 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,258
Garage
The complete kit for SSIs will set you back ~$2400. By kit I mean the oil tank, lines, gaskets, everything to install it turn-key.
I do agree that headers are a help in the driveability department and I listed that thought in my above post.
Headers are just one component in a system. If the system is not properly engineered then the results will disappoint.
Tuning is another critical issue. You can tune out turbo lag to the degree that the difference between headers and a Euro H/E setup is diminished. That is what a lot of folks experience when they install headers. Greatly increased driveability results when the previously laggy off-tune engine now runs through a better exhaust.
If the engine were previously optimized to reduce lag and maximize fuel economy (read - leaned out throughout the rpm range with optimal ignition/cam timing) the addition of headers would be not so noticeable.
Bottom line - your build needs headers to be all it can be. You just have to find a good set for the right price.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 12-22-2008, 12:09 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
930gt-40r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 2,063
There you go, no heat and $700 and sold by a reputable porsche parts distributer.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-930-911-Turbo-Headers-Performance-Exhaust-NEW_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ66Q3a4Q7c65Q3a16Q7 c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQha shZitem180314872369QQitemZ180314872369QQptZMotorsQ 5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
__________________
Kris @ Tech9
86' 930/GT-40R Sold
94' Rustang GT daily (long gone)
2008 C6/Z51 Corvette
Old 12-22-2008, 12:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 6,878
Just thought about Imagine Auto having a sale on some Fabspeed headers with heat. You may want to look at the rennlist 911 turbo forum and call stephan at IA.

They are listed as a "group buy" at $1695. Everything needed to install

Last edited by A930Rocket; 12-22-2008 at 12:56 PM..
Old 12-22-2008, 12:50 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Smart quod bastardus
 
fredmeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
Posts: 2,175
Garage
I have a 3.3 stock cams and engine but installed the GSF(?) headers with heat from IA and a k27S turbo. Also added a B&B intercooler to complete the system. Important to remember that the whole engine needs to be looked at from a system approach, your weakest link in the chain will be the part that causes most restriction to the flow of air in and out of the engine.
That being said, the car is transformed....the boost comes in at 2200rpm and is full in around 2800-3000rpm. I run 0.8 bar boost for safety, but the lag is almost non-existent and the power is almost too linear. I miss the kick in the ass from the stock US exhaust and k26.
The headers were good quality welds from outward appearance, and fit great to the heads, though I had to extensively modify the turbo compressor outlet to get the intercooler plumbing to fit. The support bracket no longer even comes close to fitting so I conclude the turbo mounting bracket wound up in the wrong place....but the fitment to the heads went like butter.
I am not sure if I got GSF or OBX or Schnell headers because they were bought from IA, and the Schnell look identical as well to GSF I've seen in pix on the web. I have heard thru researching the source of manufacture of these different headers that they are all made in China by the same supplier, so good luck proving Schnell is made in germany. That said, I never experienced debris and have had them running 15000 miles on my 79 930. Very happy with them so far!
The k27S turbo is probably a good choice for your set up but check with the experts with your particular engine set-up.....you have lots more goodies on your engine than me.
__________________
1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 12-22-2008, 01:28 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
After the next project
 
x98boardwell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Central Valley, CA
Posts: 1,517
Garage
Greg930

You have a PM..
Old 12-22-2008, 08:54 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 138
I also have the GSF headers installed with heat on my 965 with 1,1bar of boost.
Turbo now starts to spool at 1400rpm.
No problems so far regarding debris / turbodamage whatsoever since 5000 miles.
Its a different car since I have changed the headers.
Old 12-23-2008, 01:56 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Cynical Misanthrope
 
AFM744's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Campbell, CA
Posts: 382
Send a message via Yahoo to AFM744
A little BT contribution: with the two-stroke GP racebikes we'd have to clean the carbon out of the expansion chambers periodically, and it occurred to me it would work just as well for de-dingleberry-ing a header.
Buy 3ft of 1/4" or 3/8" braided steel cable. Solder one end solid (so you can put it in a drill chuck) and fray the other end. You'll want to safetywire or otherwise bind the cable about 6-8" down so it only frays enough. You Roto-Rooter that puppy in and out of a header attached to a powerful (read: corded) drill and it'll take anything out.
__________________
X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 12-23-2008, 11:02 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
930gt-40r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 2,063
I want to buy a set of GSF's or OBX headers so I could hack them up and put a T-4 flange and a Tial v-band 44 gate flange on them like my B&Bs. My B&Bs have many years of abuse on them and neet to be retired (got a crack in the merge collector). Im just sick of certain companies charging bull$hit prices just because the parts are for a Porsche. I could have my friend make a nasty set of custom headers for my car for around $1,600 with larger primaries and anything else I want where I couldnt even buy a set of B&BS or GHLs without heat for that price. The only problem is that I do not have $1600...
__________________
Kris @ Tech9
86' 930/GT-40R Sold
94' Rustang GT daily (long gone)
2008 C6/Z51 Corvette
Old 12-24-2008, 08:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Manassas, VA
 
lucittm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,211
Garage
Jon,
I can see you now, wrapping fiberglass around the inner pipe of the silencer so tightly that it worked more like a stinger than a silencer. Geez, the memories...

Mark
__________________
1991 964 Polar Silver Metallic Turbo Coupe
Old 12-24-2008, 11:55 AM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Macht Schnell
 
les_garten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: PSL, FL
Posts: 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFM744 View Post
A little BT contribution: with the two-stroke GP racebikes we'd have to clean the carbon out of the expansion chambers periodically, and it occurred to me it would work just as well for de-dingleberry-ing a header.
Buy 3ft of 1/4" or 3/8" braided steel cable. Solder one end solid (so you can put it in a drill chuck) and fray the other end. You'll want to safetywire or otherwise bind the cable about 6-8" down so it only frays enough. You Roto-Rooter that puppy in and out of a header attached to a powerful (read: corded) drill and it'll take anything out.
I like this one!
__________________
---Les Garten---85 930, Andial IC, GHL Headers, Fabspeed Dual, K-27 HF2, 3.4 JE Full Finned 7.5:1 CR, 964 CAM'd, Carerra 3.2 Manifold Cut/Flipped, Tec3r, Siemans 55#, GSF Fuel Rails, Clewett Crank Trigger, Clewett Cam Trigger,Dual Plugged, ARP Head Studs/Rod Bolts, Clewett Wires.Tial 46mm WG, Tial 50mm BOV, WEVO Shifter,934 Boost Gauge, Wideband EGO Sensor/Gauge, C2T Head Gaskets, '88 MB 300TE,BMW R100RT
Old 12-24-2008, 05:31 PM
  Pelican Parts Technical Article Directory    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:53 AM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2016 Pelican Parts - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.