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Is this K27 a good upgrade?

Hello and happy new year to everyone!

I own a very nice 83' 930 (euro spec). It has a nice SS sport exhaust and a 1bar WG spring.
I have purchased a second hand Kokeln that I plan to fit soon (I need the installation kit that I will order possibly today...).

I have the opporutunity to buy the following parts:

KUND-NR 930.123.013.04
GROSSE K27 - 3072 GD 11.11
ALT-NR 90 070 04 80
AUSF-NR 5327 970 7200


1. I am not sure exactly what I get... Could someone help me identify the parts?
2. Is it a bolt on?

3. The price quoted by the seller is 1000 for everything. Is it a decent price?

Thanks a lot for your help

Mathieu
Old 01-05-2009, 02:15 AM
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The K27-11/11 is an old turbo. Upgrade is maybe not the right term but the results will be different than the stock 3LDZ. The characteristics of a turbo may drastically change how your car drives and the overall experience. It will serve you better to first decide what you want out of your engine and then choose the components to get your there.
Love the color of your car by the way.
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Old 01-05-2009, 05:10 AM
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Mathieu,
I have just been through this process with a K27-7200 turbo replacing the original 3LDZ turbo on my '86 930.

It isn't a direct bolt-on conversion because ...
  • the exhaust housing is at least 10mm wider than standard, (see pics) therefore your muffler will have to move to the right (this is OK if you have the space - I didn't so I had to shorten the pipe between turbo and muffler)
  • because exhaust housing is bigger, the turbo mounting bracket must be modified by cutting and welding
  • the compressor outlet pipe is different (3LDZ is a O-ring/sleeve connection but K27 is a hose and clamp connection)

The K27 compressor inlet and oil pipes are the same size and location.
The K27 compressor outlet pipe also comes up through the sheetmetal in the same location.
You will need to make up a new pipe between the K27 and the Kokeln IC anyway so be prepared to stuff around with various clamps, reducers and silicon hoses to make it work.

There are different ways to tackle the mounting bracket modifications (a search will give you some ideas) but I just moved mine sideways to the right about 15mm and deleted the top LH mounting bolt.

I can't help as far as identifying the part, but I suspect it is off a later model 930.
I bought a serviceable unit off eBay for $450 so EUR1000 seems a bit high. Then again, a new one is more than that!

I hope this helps. The pictures below should give you some idea what to expect.
Bill.

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Old 01-05-2009, 05:14 AM
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Billjam: thank you very much for the insight, I can now anticipate the level of work involved in this kind of upgrade

Rarly8: I am looking at the best value upgrade still compatible with a street use (with some track days per year). Thus my desire to fit better IC, near bolt on turbo and at a later stage headers (I already have a free flow exhaust and Euro headers). On which car was the K27-11/11 fitted? I never heard of this one. How does it compare to the K27-7200? Thank you very much in advance !

Mathieu
Old 01-05-2009, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
The K27-11/11 is an old turbo. Upgrade is maybe not the right term but the results will be different than the stock 3LDZ. The characteristics of a turbo may drastically change how your car drives and the overall experience. It will serve you better to first decide what you want out of your engine and then choose the components to get your there.
Love the color of your car by the way.
I put an old k27 7006 on my car several years ago, and it did change the characteristics of how she runs. The power delivery is much more linear to where you don't get that huge blast-off of power after waiting for the stock 3LDZ to spool up. But overall I'm pleased with it, until such time that I fork over some cash for an an HFS or something.
I didn't have any real fittment issues, other than having to do a clamp-on silicon ribber hose mount to the intercooler (as Bill indicated in his earlier post).
Old 01-05-2009, 10:28 AM
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Bill, I just noticed that the plate on your K27 has the exact same numbers as the ones I was given (see my first post). So, assuming RarlyL8 is right you have a K27-11/11 and not a K27-7200!
Mathieu


Quote:
Originally Posted by billjam View Post

I can't help as far as identifying the part, but I suspect it is off a later model 930.
I bought a serviceable unit off eBay for $450 so EUR1000 seems a bit high. Then again, a new one is more than that!

I hope this helps. The pictures below should give you some idea what to expect.
Bill.

[img]
Old 01-05-2009, 11:22 AM
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Another question: have all 965 been fitted with K27-7200 or were there other K27 turbos fitted to 965?

Thanks
Old 01-05-2009, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1100sport View Post
Bill, I just noticed that the plate on your K27 has the exact same numbers as the ones I was given (see my first post). So, assuming RarlyL8 is right you have a K27-11/11 and not a K27-7200!
Mathieu
The data plate pictured is for a K-27 7200. If you look at the first bottom line on the data plate, you will see it is a 7200. I believe a 11.11 is a 7200.
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:13 PM
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The K27-7200 11/11 is the "old style" 7200 as commonly seen on the C2T. It is a bit confusing. The "new" 7200 has vastly different characteristics and shares the same platform as the K27S.

The 7200 11/11 is not a bad turbo but there are improved modern versions. I use the 11/11 on my engine to test exhaust systems. It is very predictable and will not incourage over-boosting.

The 7006 is a large unit that was used in some Werks cars and 3.6 C2T's. Big turbo that pulls hard on the top end.

The most economic is the modern K27-7200 and K27S. They are also my personal favorite for street cars with few mods and stock heads. For a few hundred more the HF and HFS will pull harder through redline resulting in more HP. Check out my website if you like for more info.
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Old 01-05-2009, 07:31 PM
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Rarly, how is the 7006 compared to the HF or HFS on a 3,3 965?
Is it true that the 7006 came with the 930 Turbo S models?
Which one to go for with headers, decat and +1bar?
I am asking because not everybody is happy with the HFS and the 7006 might be an alternative.
Old 01-06-2009, 02:37 AM
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I'm no expert but I will share my impressions.
A 7006 was one of the many turbos that my buddy tried out a couple of years ogo when doing all of the experimenting with setups. That is a large turbo with a big hit on the top end. It did come with some Turbo S, Werks and Turbo 3.6 cars.
The HF and HFS have a lower threshold making them less of an on/off switch. They both are capable to carry 1.0 bar through redline.
All work at least as well with headers as Euro exhaust. The HF/HFS flow so much air that waste gate plumbing becomes critical to eleviate over-boost. Headers like B&B/GHL have less than optimal waste gate plumbing and many have reported overboost, some have blown engines. Better waste gate control is what Ben and I both like about the twin wastegate designs we plan to use going forward.
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Old 01-06-2009, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
I'm no expert but I will share my impressions.
A 7006 was one of the many turbos that my buddy tried out a couple of years ogo when doing all of the experimenting with setups. That is a large turbo with a big hit on the top end. It did come with some Turbo S, Werks and Turbo 3.6 cars.
The HF and HFS have a lower threshold making them less of an on/off switch. They both are capable to carry 1.0 bar through redline.
All work at least as well with headers as Euro exhaust. The HF/HFS flow so much air that waste gate plumbing becomes critical to eleviate over-boost. Headers like B&B/GHL have less than optimal waste gate plumbing and many have reported overboost, some have blown engines. Better waste gate control is what Ben and I both like about the twin wastegate designs we plan to use going forward.
+1
The '85 Special Wishes Slant I have came with the factory K-27 7006. With the Euro HE's, the turbo came on around 3300-3400RPM and pulled very strong to redline with the wastegate opening at .9Bar. I have since added B&B complete header/muffler system with higher boost threshold. The engine comes on around 2800-2900RPM and pulls strong to redline with a 1.0-1.1 Bar(twin-plugged engine). Keep in mind though, the Special Wishes cars had a different cams than the standard 930's. The SW cars breathed a lot better at the top end the factory 930's. The K-27 7200's, HF/HFS's, 7006's would be killer with SC or 964 type cams, imho.
As always, set your target HP and stick to it. If your going to keep the factory 930 cams, don't go with the HF/HFS series turbos thinking they are going to give you more HP. They might improve the low end response, but you will get nothing on the top. Those 930 cams are like hooking a garden hose to a fire hydrant.
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Old 01-06-2009, 06:27 AM
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K27-7200 is very well fitted to most 3.3 turbos. Comes in hard and fast but runs out of HP a little above 360hp. Is was used by Porsche on the C2 3.3 and 3.6 turbos. It was basically at its limit with the 3.6. It is a great fit for the natural fueling capacity of a non modified CIS fuel head and WUR.

K27-7006 basically had the same size compressor wheel as the K27-7200 but had a larger hot side. It was used on the S2 which a special option 3.3 C2 turbo that was built by Andial to qualify the model for a race series. Other mods included C2 normal cams, and a larger core welded into the inter-cooler. What the turbo did mostly was reduce the back pressure in the exhaust system and was a better fit for a track duty 3.3 running reasionable boost pressures.

The K27 HF basically uses the small hot side from a K27-7200 but adds a large compressor wheel. This makes for earlier boost onset but with the large compressor wheel fighting the small turbine, it takes longer duration to reach full boost than a K 27-7200. It still may reach full boost at the same time, just takes longer from start to finish. It kind of makes the Turbo feel more like a normally aspirated car but with more power. With the larger compressor wheel the compressed air dose not get as hot and boost dose not fall off at higher rpms. One of the concerns with this turbo is it pushes the relationship between the compressor wheel and hot wheel to an extreme. This makes for a lot of exhaust having to now exit the Wast Gate. Some cars just do not have adequate WG circuits and this can make for an over-boost situation. Just something to watch for.

I defer to the experts.
Old 01-14-2009, 08:23 PM
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hey i have this k27 turbo i assume its the same as the 7200 just by looking at it.
just wondering if you guys know if i can get a smaller rear housing for it as it is very lagy, i get no boost pressure in first maybe 5psi at 6000 rpm in first and get full boost 15psi in 2nd/3rd by 5000 but starts boosting at 3-3500. Can anyone please help me here. someone has used a turbonetics rear housing but i have no details. im looking at a .6-.7 or even a .8 rear housing? i have heard my k27 has a 1.06 rear housing! Thanks
Old 12-14-2009, 07:13 PM
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oh and the part no is 5327 970 7009 not like i had previously thought. any help here?
Old 12-15-2009, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
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K27-7200 is very well fitted to most 3.3 turbos. Comes in hard and fast but runs out of HP a little above 360hp. Is was used by Porsche on the C2 3.3 and 3.6 turbos. It was basically at its limit with the 3.6. It is a great fit for the natural fueling capacity of a non modified CIS fuel head and WUR.

K27-7006 basically had the same size compressor wheel as the K27-7200 but had a larger hot side. It was used on the S2 which a special option 3.3 C2 turbo that was built by Andial to qualify the model for a race series. Other mods included C2 normal cams, and a larger core welded into the inter-cooler. What the turbo did mostly was reduce the back pressure in the exhaust system and was a better fit for a track duty 3.3 running reasionable boost pressures.

The K27 HF basically uses the small hot side from a K27-7200 but adds a large compressor wheel. This makes for earlier boost onset but with the large compressor wheel fighting the small turbine, it takes longer duration to reach full boost than a K 27-7200. It still may reach full boost at the same time, just takes longer from start to finish. It kind of makes the Turbo feel more like a normally aspirated car but with more power. With the larger compressor wheel the compressed air dose not get as hot and boost dose not fall off at higher rpms. One of the concerns with this turbo is it pushes the relationship between the compressor wheel and hot wheel to an extreme. This makes for a lot of exhaust having to now exit the Wast Gate. Some cars just do not have adequate WG circuits and this can make for an over-boost situation. Just something to watch for.

I defer to the experts.
Are you sure the 7006 was used on the S2's? I was under the impression that the turbo remained the same as the stock unit used on all the 964 turbos. the 7006 was fitted to the 94 turbo S's. I swapped out my 7200 on my 3.6 with a HF K27. Dyno charts show that it not only starts to build boost lower it reaches full boost (plateau) at lower rpms than the stock 7200. The HF does creep a little but not bad and as you can see the stock K27 loose wind early. the difference in the compressor wheel is not overall size as much as added veins. In addition to the 12 primary veins there are 12 secondary (or veins beneath the veins). hard to explain without a picture. I have some older charts of a stock K27-7200 vs a HF K27 at 2 different spring rates. Not sure if this helps. I do prefer the power delivery and improved throttle control of the HF over the stock K27-7200.
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Last edited by Cobalt; 12-17-2009 at 12:59 PM..
Old 12-17-2009, 12:45 PM
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Are you sure the 7006 was used on the S2's? I was under the impression that the turbo remained the same as the stock unit used on all the 964 turbos. the 7006 was fitted to the 94 turbo S's. I swapped out my 7200 on my 3.6 with a HF K27. Dyno charts show that it not only starts to build boost lower it reaches full boost (plateau) at lower rpms than the stock 7200. The HF does creep a little but not bad and as you can see the stock K27 loose wind early. the difference in the compressor wheel is not overall size as much as added veins. In addition to the 12 primary veins there are 12 secondary (or veins beneath the veins). hard to explain without a picture. I have some older charts of a stock K27-7200 vs a HF K27 at 2 different spring rates. Not sure if this helps. I do prefer the power delivery and improved throttle control of the HF over the stock K27-7200.
A K27-7200 is just not a very good turbo for a 94 3.6T. It is very near its limit on that car.

An HF on a 3.6T I would expect would be a wonderfull up grade and should be able to reach .8 bar boost before 3k depending on exhaust.

As to the special 3.6 Turbo S, there has not been any discosure of what the actual turbo was that I could find.

There has been descriptions as to how said car responds. From discription it is a little laggy or mabe just such low HP it seemed so. But it run like crazy up top. My guess it was a special build and probably was simmiler to an HF built on a 7006, an old school K29, or RUF turbo. I dought they would put the small hot side from the 7200 on it. It might just be somthing like a #13 hot side.

From the info I have seen on tuning the normal 3.6 the 7200 runs out of air flow when performance is expanded even just a little and it just overworked by 400hp.

The 3.6 is a different animal than the 930. It has higher compression and is a biger motor so it moves a lot more air faster than a 3.3. I suspect Porsche took kind of a short cut putting the 7200 on it but that is what they had.

If I was tuning a 3.6 I would want a larger compressor wheel like a K29 or HF but I would also want the effecenty and HP that can come with a larger hot side of a 7006 or such. I would improve my low end in other ways.

From my limited experance putting a larger compressor wheel in a 7200 like an HF or quick spool K29, boost onset starts earlyer. I belive it dose so because the compressor wheel moves more air with each revoluition. However, this also pushes back agaist the turbine wheel. Full boost might come in close to a 7200. However the time from boost onset to full boost is longer and more controled. The 7200 reacts faster from boost onset to full boost. and on a 3.3 can come in earler. I just like how hard a 7200 comes on.

As to the S2 I am very sure it had the K27-7006. I am not sure if they opened up the intake ports. I tought it had C2 normal cams but others seem to belive it was and SC so I am also less sure about that.

Again, what is cool about the 7006 is it actually has just a little smaller compressor side than the stock 7200. Not larger like one would think. However, the larger hot side alows for lower back pressure and increase effecency. The result being and expanded level of gross HP.

I wish someone would test the level of back pressure that builds up in the exhaust with a 7200 and a K29 quick spool or HF. I think on most turbos the pressure in the exhaust is almost 3 times boost. I bet there is a mesureable and maybe signifficant differance. Great for a street car but mayby not the best choice for a track car.

It is interesting but there is HP hiding on both the hot and cold side of a turbo.

At least this is what I belive but I could be wrong.
Old 12-17-2009, 02:11 PM
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The car I was going to use for testing my C2T exhaust was a '94S. It had a 7006 turbo on it. May have been added along the way but I don't think so.
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:25 PM
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Here's a couple links to charts showing turbos Porsche used.
If you can decipher all the Porsche part numbers maybe it can help to figure out what origonally came on different cars.

turbo-product

Porsche Turbocharger
Old 12-17-2009, 04:49 PM
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I stand corrected. Thank you Brian.

I was getting my cars mixed up. I was thinking of the 1992 Turbo S. That was a lightweight car like the RS with Speedster style seats and with the ducts behind the doors and in front of the rear fenders. It was rated at 381hp from the 3.3 motor. They also had the 3.6 style rims. That is the car that I think had the mystery turbo I was describing.

I was not thinking about the Flachbau (flat hood), or Flachbau delete, or 94 3.6 TurboS, or X85. I think those might have shard the 7006 with the 92 S2. I was not as big a fan of these. There was a motor option I think X88 or such that may have had the 7006.

I would do almost anything to own a 92 TurboS.

Sorry, the brain is not firing on all cylinders.

Last edited by 911st; 12-17-2009 at 05:18 PM..
Old 12-17-2009, 05:06 PM
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