Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > 911 / 930 Turbo & Super Charging Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 23
930 Low Boost condition...Now with PICS!!

Hey all. Just made my first foray into the 911 world with a Euro '85 930. It's been my dream car since I was a kid and I LOVE it.

The car is a 35,000 mile original, unmolested example and needs only a few minor interior wear items to be totally perfect. I bought it from the original owner and it included all the paperwork from the original German purchase documents, to the import papers to every service record. It's been babied its whole life.

I've had it a few days and noticed that it seems to lack the "OOOMPHHH" of my dad's '87 US 930, despite having the Euro engine with more power (it has all the original Euro parts, I don't have to worry about emissions where I live). I've noticed that the boost gauge stops around .6 Bar on the gauge no matter the RPM, and it seems to run out of "poop" around 5500-6000 RPM, whereas my dad's car will show .8 Bar (as it should), and pulls strong all the way to redline.

Both cars are stock and unmolested, so where to start chasing it? Tired wastegate spring opening too early? Something else? Are the tacho-mounted gauges really THAT accurate? Even if not, my "butt dyno" is saying something is up.

I am a "stock purist" and all I want is the machine as delivered in 1985 with 300hp, so mods and such are out. Not that I have anything against hot-rodders, it's just not for me.

I just got back from Iraq and I purchased the car while over there. It passed the PPI with flying colors and recently had a lot of documented work put in it before it was sold, (it sat as a "collector's piece" for 6-8 years) I just don't think it was driven hard on the inspection.

Thanks for all replies. I am glad to be a part of the "Turbo Community" and finally make my dream come true. I've heard the Turbos are "cultish" and not everyone loves 'em, but I'll have nothing else. Truth be told, I've never even driven a normally-aspirated 911! And not to open a can of worms, after my research on the 930s, I prefer the Euro cars to the US models!


Last edited by GroovieGhoulie; 01-16-2009 at 06:40 PM..
Old 01-14-2009, 12:50 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #1 (permalink)
beancounter
 
jwasbury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Weehawken, NJ
Posts: 3,624
Congrats on your new ride. Pictures are mandatory, so post 'em up or else people will start giving you a hard time. Sounds like a possible boost leak which could be any number of things. Intercooler o-rings are one of the more common problem areas. The wastegate could be the culprit as well, though I would think a leaky valve is more likely than a tired spring.

Do a search on "boost leak" and you get lots of hits. Stock gauge accuracy is debatable. Most folks recommend putting in a mechanical gauge and trusting it rather than the stocker. I've found that my factory gauge is reasonably accurate at telling me what max boost is, but is very different from the mechanical gauge as far as how and when the boost builds. I believe that is also a function of where the pressure is measured (stock = before throttle plate / mech = after throttle plate).

Welcome!
__________________
Jacob
Current: 1983 911 GT4 Race Car / 1999 Spec Miata / 2000 MB SL500 / 1998 MB E300TD / 1998 BMW R1100RT / 2016 KTM Duke 690
Past: 2009 997 Turbo Cab / 1979 930

Last edited by jwasbury; 01-14-2009 at 01:25 PM.. Reason: add content
Old 01-14-2009, 01:21 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 23
Awesome! I'll search that, and I'll be able to get pics Friday. The car is at my house a few hours away, and I'm stuck at the post during the week!
Old 01-14-2009, 01:29 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,873
We need to see some pictures of your groovie new ride. The pictures help grease the wheels for the diagnostic help you'll receive.


I think Jacob hit the most probable points to look for boost leak. Is the car running smooth throughout the rpms, or are you also seeing some rough/cut-out type running? Ordinarily, with boost leaks at the O'rings, you may also see some rough idle and really crappy performance overall - not to mention the lower boost. Pull the intercooler off and check all the O'rings.

Is there a possibility that the previous owner had installed a lower boost spring than the stock .8 bar (I know that's contrary to the general power junkie mentality of most 930 owners...but stranger things have happened).

I guess there's always the possibility of turbo damage of some sort. Perhaps something got sucked into the turbo and damaged the turbine blades to where it will no longer spin as fast as it should, or maybe the bearings are seriously coked up to where the shaft won't spin freely anymore. Just a thought.

And finally, there is what's called a boost recirculation valve (or some name close to that) which is basically a spring loaded piston. It retracts when under vacuum (such as at idle, or when shifting gears), and thus allows the built up boost to recirculate back to the front of the turbo. It's function is to prevent back-pressure on the turbo during shifts and the resultant drastic slowing of the turbo (i.e., turbo lag and wear-and-tear). If that valve's piston is sticking or not sealing correctlly, then I guess it's possible that some of your boost is being bled off. That's probably the last place I would look, though.

If you don't know yet where all this "stuff" is located on the car, our gracious host Pelican has some pretty good diagrams of most everything. And of course, we all have pictures we could share....did I say Pictures???

Good luck, welcome to the forum.
Old 01-14-2009, 02:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #4 (permalink)
Cynical Misanthrope
 
AFM744's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Campbell, CA
Posts: 382
Send a message via Yahoo to AFM744
I'm gonna 2nd the Bypass Valve, top of the suspect list. If your turbo had FOD it would probably be making noise. If your WG was leaking you'd be overboosting. Slow boost build and not reaching requested boost says BPV to me. Your's is different than the 965 so I can't help you with specifics, but you're in the right place. Welcome to the fold!!!
__________________
X-1, AFM744, Jon, '92 C2 Turbo
JE 8:1 pistons, 964 cams, 38mm intakes ported/polished/twinplugged, ARP hardware, B&B headers/exhaust, 355whp. Full-blown GT35R 3.2 intake EFI pending...
Where my misspent time and money is currently going.
Old 01-14-2009, 02:58 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #5 (permalink)
beancounter
 
jwasbury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Weehawken, NJ
Posts: 3,624
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFM744 View Post
If your WG was leaking you'd be overboosting.
Not always...

When I bought my car, I was getting too much boost. WG was suspect. When I tested, I found it was leaking at the valve, but also would not open at .8 or 1 bar. I opened it up and found two springs in there. Reassembled it with only 1 spring and then it leaked so badly at the valve stem that the boost built slowly and never achieved even .08 bar. You could hear the air pressure bleeding out.

Fresh TIAL fixed me up right.

If you're WG is toast, and you want to retain "stock purity," be prepared to pay big $$. Last time I checked, the OEM WG was $1200 from our host. Its possible to refurb the original ones, but I believe that replacement parts like valves, seats, and valve guides are not available from Porsche. I looked into having a machine shop fab up pieces to refurb my factory WG and concluded that getting a TIAL was the cost effective approach. I've also heard that by combining the usable bits from several toasted factory WGs, you can come up with one good one. Should you need it, I bet you could get a pile of junked factory WGs from those of us on the forum.
__________________
Jacob
Current: 1983 911 GT4 Race Car / 1999 Spec Miata / 2000 MB SL500 / 1998 MB E300TD / 1998 BMW R1100RT / 2016 KTM Duke 690
Past: 2009 997 Turbo Cab / 1979 930
Old 01-14-2009, 03:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #6 (permalink)
 
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 8,205
First off, thanks for serving!

Everybody has some good ideas.

You said the PPI came through with flying colors. They did a compression check and a leakdown test? The numbers were good?

Can you hook up a mech gauge and confirm your boost level?

After being in storage and not run much, you may need to work out a few kinks.

Any pictures?
Old 01-14-2009, 04:00 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #7 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 23
I'll have pics on friday since I'm heading to where the car is at that point.

To answer some of the questions, (and ask a few more of my own):

1. The car starts and runs perfect. I mean, totally perfect, and feels and runs like a stock 930 should. Pulls hard and feels VERY healthy, except it is apparently not building the boost it should and the "kick in the ass" falls off sharply over 6000 RPM, whereas other stock cars I've driven will pull hard to redline. Being a Euro car with the more open exhaust, it comes on faster than the US cars I've driven, but then it runs out of breath early.

2. The previous owner was an older doctor who bought the car new in 1985. Rather conservative gentleman from what I can gather. He died in 1998 and his sons inherited the car. In the last 10 years, they've driven it VERY little, and it's pretty well sat with little exercise for the last 6-8 years. They said they felt "weird" driving "dad's car". The odds of him installing a "weaker" wastegate spring might be possible since the car runs totally perfect otherwise.

3. In the month before I bought it, it had the engine and transmission dropped out and the entire gearbox rebuilt with new synchros, tightened shift linkage, new clutch and flywheel, all new gaskets on the engine, valve adjustment, A/C rebuilt and charged with R134a, and the engine's compression and leakdown was tested at the time. A load of other work was performed as well. All documents provided show the engine had VERY good compression and leakdown numbers, (I don't have the documents in front of me, so I don't have the numbers here). The gearbox didn't need the full rebuild, the guy just wanted to make sure it was perfectly "as-new" before he sold it. Receipts indicate that the PO spent almost $9000 on the car in order to bring it out of storage and make it ready to hit the road. It needs nothing, (except the low-boost thing of course).

4. As far as being a "stock purist" goes, I'm not hung up on EVERY part saying "Porsche", but I would want any replacement parts to replicate the function of the original. For example, when I talked about the car possibly being low-boost with my brother, he immediately said to put a 1 Bar spring in, (he's a hot-rodder), and I was aghast. I would not be opposed to replacing the WG or spring with aftermarket parts, as long as they maintain the stock "feel" and power of the original. I prefer it as a "period piece" and a glimpse into the past. An '80s 911 Carrera on Steroids. I love the stock 16" Fuchs and suspension. I love the stock brakes. I want the car with the Euro standard 300hp and 317 lb/ft (I think that's the torque number). No more, and certainly no less. If aftermarket parts can supply that, and look similar to stock, I am there, but I don't wanna go down the slippery slope of modifications because I don't know where it ends. I just like 'em stock. Plus, the car is already so close to dead-stock, I figure it's easier to keep it that way than start modding. I hope this makes sense.

5. Upon further memory, I'm not sure if the muffler is stock. It is a non-catalyst muffler that sounds and flows well, but it is only a single outlet, and I thought all the 930 mufflers were the twin outlet. It is also FAR smaller than the muffler on my dad's aforementioned '87 US 930. I will post pics, but what are the odds of scoring a Euro-spec non-cat 930 muffler if I need one?

6. Also, any upshot to securing a set of 16x9 Fuchs so I can mount the 245/45-16 tires? Per 1985, It has the 16x8 Fuchs on there with the 225/50-16 tires. Does the extra 20mm make a difference in handling?

7. I know it was retarded to buy a car without driving it first, but I found it advertised while I was gone and the car came with extensive documentation and I had a local Porsche place check it out before I made the deal, and well, I bought it for "average" 1985 Carrera money, and it's a pristine Turbo. So I jumped on it. I think it's 95% there, it just needs to get over the boost issue before it's perfect.

Thanks for all the help. I am VERY excited about this car. Nothing is like it. I am absolutely ga-ga over the 930s.

I will post pics of the car and the exhaust to help the diagnosis. I really don't think it'll take much toe be perfect.
Old 01-14-2009, 05:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #8 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,873
Hmmm....she sounds to be in fine shape overall. Go for the boost leaks as described. All the plumbing to and from the turbo, as well as all hoses connected to the intercooler and manifold. Anyplace the boost could escape. It's gotta be there somewhere.

Don't overlook the WG. I do know that the valve stem and/or valve seats can wear over time and leak more than per design. In other words, some of that exhaust gas that's supposed to be turning the turbo can leak past the valve. It's' a pretty simple 10 minute chore to pull the WG and at least inspect it's components. Might see something obvious (like the valve not seating properly).

You'll find it...be patient but thorough.
Old 01-14-2009, 06:40 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
p930t's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Norway
Posts: 55
Congrats on a great car. my advice is ... keep it stock.

I am a stock purist myself but perform "period upgrades".
I was convinced to replace the old original WG spring since I could get no more than 0.6BAR
I exchanged it with a 0.9 RUF spring and replaced O-rings on the presure side. There was a huge difference.
The original cams tend to fade out on high revs and i have excanged them with SC cams in cooperation with Euro exhaust. It now push hard beyond 6000, but the turbo also have its limits in its range.

Regarding muffler, the 930 was single outlet until 1984 as far as i remember..... Anyway my 78 is single outlet.

Hav fun
__________________
78 930 Black/Black,
Reference car with 23.000 original miles.
Old 01-15-2009, 04:54 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Back in B'ham, AL
Posts: 3,448
Welcome to the forum!

Did anyone ask for pictures? OK - understood - Friday is your last chance... or we'll cut you off the forum.

The boost dash gage is not that accurate, but will give you a good idea of boost levels; at least on/off feedback. Depending where you are (elevation and temp), boost levels and gage indication vary on a "perfect" car. As you say, the "butt dyno" is important too, but need to consider that different cars feel differently under the same conditions. Unless obvious, and if so, something is wrong - as you believe.

There is a very simple test for the WG, just put a piece of cloth/paper towel inside the WG exhaust pipe and have someone looking when the pressures pushes it out; normally you'll have to be under boost for it to happen. If it leaks - depending on the magnitude of the leak - it'll push it out without any gage indication. If it doesn't leak, the WG should start opening about .6 bars - you'll feel the boost and should have some gage indication of it - and at the same time you should see the cloth/paper flying away behind the car... Home made testing but it will give you a good indication of the WG condition...

BTW 930s came with single outlet exhaust not dual. Did anyone say mods??

Enjoy the car and be safe!!!
Old 01-15-2009, 06:10 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miguel Antonett View Post
Welcome to the forum!
BTW 930s came with single outlet exhaust not dual. Did anyone say mods??
I will definitely try the paper/rag trick. Free tests are always good.

As far as the muffler, I meant to say "dual-tip", like the one pictured below. Mine only has a single tip.

My dad's '87 has the factory dual-tip and I prefer the look of it.

Old 01-15-2009, 07:05 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Back in B'ham, AL
Posts: 3,448
I meant one sided - driver side. And you are correct, single and dual tips are OEM - depending on the year, but all on the driver side.
Old 01-15-2009, 07:15 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #13 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,458
I am having a tough time understanding the "purist" state of mind, especially when they restrict the performance of a "performance car".

Your car has the potential to be so much more modern and driveable with terrific throttle response with a few choice parts that will compliment the car, I am not talking about tacking neons to the undercarriage I am talking aftermarket items that will bring the car to 2009 and on levels.

The stock exhaust, the stock muffler, the stock turbo and intercooler are all rubbish by todays standards and are rather dated. They were all designed in the'70s when turbo technology was in its infancy, technology has come a LONG way since then, and you have an opportunity to really transform your car.

I was totally disappointed when I bought my stock '89 930 a few years ago, I was thinking "This is a $90,000 Porsche 911 turbo???huh???..."...my gosh give me a bucket to throw-up in. My little Turbo Toyota Corolla would run circles around it. The car had an idle like a Cadillac DeVille, it was that muted and quiet, I like my cars with some bark to their bite, my car was lacking both!

So there and then I decided to upgrade and remove the stock parts, install well chosen parts and have not looked back. My car is now awesome, it will outrun a Ferrari F355 with ease and is reliable and still has more to go, if I decide I want continue along the slippery slope.

Your car your choice.

Yasin
__________________
Ole Skool - wouldn't have it any other way
Old 01-15-2009, 07:36 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow&rusty View Post
I am having a tough time understanding the "purist" state of mind, especially when they restrict the performance of a "performance car".

Your car has the potential to be so much more modern and driveable with terrific throttle response with a few choice parts that will compliment the car, I am not talking about tacking neons to the undercarriage I am talking aftermarket items that will bring the car to 2009 and on levels.

The stock exhaust, the stock muffler, the stock turbo and intercooler are all rubbish by todays standards and are rather dated. They were all designed in the'70s when turbo technology was in its infancy, technology has come a LONG way since then, and you have an opportunity to really transform your car.

I was totally disappointed when I bought my stock '89 930 a few years ago, I was thinking "This is a $90,000 Porsche 911 turbo???huh???..."...my gosh give me a bucket to throw-up in. My little Turbo Toyota Corolla would run circles around it. The car had an idle like a Cadillac DeVille, it was that muted and quiet, I like my cars with some bark to their bite, my car was lacking both!

So there and then I decided to upgrade and remove the stock parts, install well chosen parts and have not looked back. My car is now awesome, it will outrun a Ferrari F355 with ease and is reliable and still has more to go, if I decide I want continue along the slippery slope.

Your car your choice.

Yasin
I understand your point of view. I will try to explain mine, and PLEASE don't think I am trying to denigrate or bring down people that modify the cars to be more modern. My brother is one of them, he and I banter back and forth, (friendly), all the time about this.

Mine is a minority opinion, I'm sure. If I wanted a car with the performance and feeling of a 2009 car, I would buy a 2009 car. I wanted a performance car from the 1980s, with that level of performance, so that's what I bought. I enjoy the car for its flaws. I love the lightswitch effect of the turbo coming on, (50hp from idle to 3500RPM, then, within 500RPM, you have 300hp all the way to redline), the bags of lag, the vicious handling. I LIKE the fact that it's a 1960s chassis mated to 1970s suspension design and 1970s brakes, with a powerful, yet hard-to-drive engine. On paper, the car should not be a success, but yet it was a champion, worldbeating machine, and I like that.

I like the fact that the handling is vicious and takes a real master to get everything out of it. I like that the car will kill you if you're dumb and over-drive it. I'm no master driver, but I like that the car will force me to get better, or I'll bend the car or hurt myself.

I like the 1960s ergonomics and quirky switchgear location. Almost as if Porsche loaded all the ancillary switches into a shotgun, just blew them into the dashboard, and wherever they landed, that's where they were placed.

In a similar vein, I ride motorcycles also and my daily ride is a 1976 Honda CB750. By today's standards, it's got a aluminum lump of an engine, a frame that flexes as if made of spaghetti, woolly handling, primitive suspension and marginal brakes. But I love it for what it is and will never change it. It's a time machine to 1976. Sure, I know people that hot-rod the old bikes into firebreathing Cafe Racers, but they'll still get blown away by a modern 600RR, and with the money they put into the bike, they could have a more modern machine.

Which brings up the question of value. I see myself as a caretaker of the past. How many stock 930s are around? Probably not many and dwindling by the day. In the future, if someone wants to see a glimpse of turbo technology and the "Zeitgeist" of supercars from the '70s and '80s, they'll need to see a stock car. Plus, which cars hold the most value and are sought after? The stock ones, with all their flaws.

I guess it comes down to if I wanted more performance, I could spend $35,000 on a nice clean 930, then spend another $30,000 modifying the engine, suspension and brakes and have a car than can run with, or outrun, a 997TT. Or I could take that same $65,000 and buy, (or put a down payment on), a later Turbo with the engine performance already there, better handling, better braking, better chassis, better ergonomics, more comfort, etc.

And in the end, the market seems to bear out that a unmolested, stock 930, if maintained and cared for, will be worth at least the purchase price, undoubtedly more in the coming years. The $35,000 930 that has $35,000 in mods might break even on the purchase price, maybe a little more, but it has to be the right buyer. The owner will never get the money out of it that he put in it. It has to be a labor of love.

Mine will not be a track car. I've got a GP replica motorcycle for track days. For Auto-X, I have a 2001 Boxster S. I don't tear-ass around on the streets either. I got nothing to prove on public roads. I've driven and ridden in modified 930s and I just prefer the characteristics of the stock cars, as flawed as they are.

I'm not sure if this makes my position clear, but I hope it sheds some light on why I don't wanna modify it, except for perhaps, as p930t said, "period upgrades". To forestall possible accusations, I'm not a "speculator", trying to flip the car for a profit later. To be honest, I don't plan to ever sell it, but life has taught me to never say never, and I buy all big-buck items with an eye toward their value in the future, just in case.

I really hope I didn't offend any hot-rodders here. There are some AWESOME cars on this site, and I wouldn't kick any of 'em outta my garage, but for me and my tastes, I like 'em stock. In 10 years, who knows, but for now, I like 'em "as delivered".
Old 01-15-2009, 08:16 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
mark houghton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Central Washington State
Posts: 3,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by GroovieGhoulie View Post
I understand your point of view. I will try to explain mine, and PLEASE don't think I am trying to denigrate or bring down people that modify the cars to be more modern. My brother is one of them, he and I banter back and forth, (friendly), all the time about this.

Mine is a minority opinion, I'm sure. If I wanted a car with the performance and feeling of a 2009 car, I would buy a 2009 car. I wanted a performance car from the 1980s, with that level of performance, so that's what I bought. I enjoy the car for its flaws. I love the lightswitch effect of the turbo coming on, (50hp from idle to 3500RPM, then, within 500RPM, you have 300hp all the way to redline), the bags of lag, the vicious handling. I LIKE the fact that it's a 1960s chassis mated to 1970s suspension design and 1970s brakes, with a powerful, yet hard-to-drive engine. On paper, the car should not be a success, but yet it was a champion, worldbeating machine, and I like that.

I like the fact that the handling is vicious and takes a real master to get everything out of it. I like that the car will kill you if you're dumb and over-drive it. I'm no master driver, but I like that the car will force me to get better, or I'll bend the car or hurt myself.

I like the 1960s ergonomics and quirky switchgear location. Almost as if Porsche loaded all the ancillary switches into a shotgun, just blew them into the dashboard, and wherever they landed, that's where they were placed.

In a similar vein, I ride motorcycles also and my daily ride is a 1976 Honda CB750. By today's standards, it's got a aluminum lump of an engine, a frame that flexes as if made of spaghetti, woolly handling, primitive suspension and marginal brakes. But I love it for what it is and will never change it. It's a time machine to 1976. Sure, I know people that hot-rod the old bikes into firebreathing Cafe Racers, but they'll still get blown away by a modern 600RR, and with the money they put into the bike, they could have a more modern machine.

Which brings up the question of value. I see myself as a caretaker of the past. How many stock 930s are around? Probably not many and dwindling by the day. In the future, if someone wants to see a glimpse of turbo technology and the "Zeitgeist" of supercars from the '70s and '80s, they'll need to see a stock car. Plus, which cars hold the most value and are sought after? The stock ones, with all their flaws.

I guess it comes down to if I wanted more performance, I could spend $35,000 on a nice clean 930, then spend another $30,000 modifying the engine, suspension and brakes and have a car than can run with, or outrun, a 997TT. Or I could take that same $65,000 and buy, (or put a down payment on), a later Turbo with the engine performance already there, better handling, better braking, better chassis, better ergonomics, more comfort, etc.

And in the end, the market seems to bear out that a unmolested, stock 930, if maintained and cared for, will be worth at least the purchase price, undoubtedly more in the coming years. The $35,000 930 that has $35,000 in mods might break even on the purchase price, maybe a little more, but it has to be the right buyer. The owner will never get the money out of it that he put in it. It has to be a labor of love.

Mine will not be a track car. I've got a GP replica motorcycle for track days. For Auto-X, I have a 2001 Boxster S. I don't tear-ass around on the streets either. I got nothing to prove on public roads. I've driven and ridden in modified 930s and I just prefer the characteristics of the stock cars, as flawed as they are.

I'm not sure if this makes my position clear, but I hope it sheds some light on why I don't wanna modify it, except for perhaps, as p930t said, "period upgrades". To forestall possible accusations, I'm not a "speculator", trying to flip the car for a profit later. To be honest, I don't plan to ever sell it, but life has taught me to never say never, and I buy all big-buck items with an eye toward their value in the future, just in case.

I really hope I didn't offend any hot-rodders here. There are some AWESOME cars on this site, and I wouldn't kick any of 'em outta my garage, but for me and my tastes, I like 'em stock. In 10 years, who knows, but for now, I like 'em "as delivered".
Well said, enjoy the beast as she is.
Though I've opted for the "period upgrades" myself, of course I've retained all the original parts. Resale value is really relative to who the potential buyer is. Some have full intentions of modifying and would see the benefit of buying an already modified car, whereas others desire bone stock such as you do. If I should ever decide to sell mine (which I seriously doubt), I could always return it to stock...depending on where the best bang for the buck could be found.
Old 01-15-2009, 09:34 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #16 (permalink)
Smart quod bastardus
 
fredmeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Baltimore, MD, USA
Posts: 2,235
Garage
To be safe why not replace all the o-rings in the intercooler plumbing and then check all the hoses including wastegate hose to the intake system. Age deteriorates the rubber in the o-rings and hoses rot. Then you have the benfit of knowing they are new and not suspect.
Then remove the wastegate from its perch and give it a once over. You can inspect the valve surface to see how it seals and even supply some air pressure to the wastegate port and measure boost level to open it. At 0.6 bar you are looking at about 8-9psi pressure since 1.0 bar is about 14.5psi. This way you can check the opening setting on the wastgate.
Then junk that tach boost gage and get a real VDO gage for the clock location. Way more accurate and stock appearing.
Stick to your guns and enjoy the car the way you want. Nothing wrong with a stock 930 supercar....that is what it was and still is. I miss the turbo lag in mine sometimes now that I modded it with a k27s and headers.
You may want to add a bigger intercooler to aid engine longevity though and look into mounting a real oil cooler on the car....chances are you have a loop cooler in the fender?
Fred
__________________
1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
---"When you're racing it's life! Anything else either before or after, is just waiting"
Old 01-15-2009, 11:00 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #17 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
A930Rocket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Mount Pleasant, South Carolina
Posts: 8,205
There is no right or wrong when it comes to your car. Stock car look great as do so modded cars. I appreciate both.

Now cars that sit in the garage? That's a different story!
Old 01-15-2009, 05:34 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #18 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by A930Rocket View Post

Now cars that sit in the garage? That's a different story!
I agree!!! These cars were meant to be USED. I don't care if it's stock or modded, but if it's a Garage Queen, I feel for the poor thing.

Quote:
chances are you have a loop cooler in the fender?
I think '84 or '85 was the first year for the proper finned cooler in the fender, not the earlier trombone type. I know I've got the later one.
Old 01-15-2009, 08:11 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Glorious Pac NW
Posts: 3,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by GroovieGhoulie View Post
I've noticed that the boost gauge stops around .6 Bar on the gauge no matter the RPM, and it seems to run out of "poop" around 5500-6000 RPM, whereas my dad's car will show .8 Bar (as it should), and pulls strong all the way to redline.
Trust me, if you've got a 3DLZ, the power is falling off a cliff after 5100 RPM. Yeh, I know it doesn't feel like it - I'd have bet big money it made power all the way to redline - but dyno charts don't lie...

Even a K27/HF makes peak power at 5700 RPM, with GHL, EVO airbox and a Kokeln.

The only reason to rev them higher is the glorious howl they make. But beware the horrible noise of a spun rod bearing if you have stock rod bolts. There's a reason the manual cites maximum sustained operating speed as 6000 RPM...

Quote:
Both cars are stock and unmolested, so where to start chasing it? Tired wastegate spring opening too early? Something else? Are the tacho-mounted gauges really THAT accurate? Even if not, my "butt dyno" is saying something is up.
First thing I'd say is to find out where you're at.

As others (and yourself) have said, the sensor might be reading low, gauge could be inaccurate, wastegate spring might be tired, boost leak from tired recirculation valve seals, intercooler O rings - or somewhere else entirely. Lots of things to check

If the spring is just tired or lower spec, I'd probably be very tempted to just fit a manual boost controller, dial in the desired boost, set/check ignition and AFR's - then leave it alone and drive the car.

BTW, "stock" boost is often said to be .7 bar - my VDO mech gauge has always read 12.5 PSI (.8 bar) boost, with stock H/Es or GHLs and two different factory wastegates... That said, I've never had it calibrated or checked, so, eh, guess I really don't know what the gauge is reading...

Quote:
And not to open a can of worms, after my research on the 930s, I prefer the Euro cars to the US models!
Yep, agree FWIW.

When I looked to replace the joke (you could roll a baseball through it) muffler I got on the car, I discovered that there are actually 2 factory RoW mufflers:

1) Dual tip outlet, wastegate feeds into muffler (PET says 930 111 037 00 for 930/60)

2) Dual tip outlet, separate wastegate muffler (PET says 930 111 038 02 for 930/66)

I have seen 930 mufflers that look identical to (1) except they have a large, single outlet. I think Borla made one, and probably others.

PET doesn't show a factory one that looks like that. Maybe it's aftermarket?

I run (2) with an open wastegate dump pipe, but I also have one of the earlier type (1) that I bought to gut some of the baffling out of and never quite got around to it. I bought both from different folks off Ebay when I was in the UK. One was $50 + shipping. RoW 930 mufflers tend to be much more spendy in the US.

Just for laughs, I priced up the little stubby wastegate muffler (930 123 063 01) from the Official Porsche Center in Reading. I think they quoted me 1800 GBP (about $3600 US at the time).

__________________
'77 S with '78 930 power and a few other things.
Old 01-15-2009, 10:41 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #20 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:28 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2020 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.