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New Obsession #9XX

First thing she says when she walks in the door “What smells” my less than witty response “Honey I was baking” a long pause, then in whisper “my cylinder heads” lol
Almost got caught in the act of installing the new valve guides on the kitchen counter. Good thing I just finished the job before she got home. Women they just don’t understand these things.

Before I go any further, I’ll confess I’m a 930 virgin. But willing to change my N/A ways and convert, well if I have to. Perhaps a brief introduction is in order as I’m new to this forum. I was a motor head in my younger days, had a few muscle cars and then you know the story, married, kids priorities. Either I’m a slow learner or going into my second childhood, probably both, but anyway its time for a little self-inductance.

After a lifetime of craving and dreaming of some day owning my own Porsche and nearly a year of searching, I finally did it. I laid down my hard earned cash on A 87 3.2 911 We’ve been together for 15 wonderful months now and I’m happy to report that we are still very much in love. I considered a few other newer models 993c4, 964c4, and for a while a 930 but in the end narrowed it down to a 1987, the deciding factor, it is exempt from our emission regulations and this opens up the door wide open for fun!

Here we are the engine is torn down, ready to build and now what to do?
Obsessed with this I’m wearing the search button here, but I still need more answers.
I’ve been sitting on the top of a very slippery slop, trying to decide which path to slide down. It’s a Toy; hopefully it will see some track use? I like the idea of a scary fast ride, but lets be real and at what cost!

So here’s what I’m proposing and where I’m at with current thoughts.
Target approximately 260 to 360 HP on 94 octane or blended fuel if needed. I know big window. Trying to increase volume over higher boost safely with a single plug. Lets say approx .6 to .85 max appropriate to the higher comp ratio Depending on costs, I might need to split up the build in stages. So start with internal mods that will benefit boosting but still work well while N/A. I have already cleaned up the heads, exhaust &intake ports and plenum from casting flaws also boat-tailed the case to reduce turbulence. Will use stock rods with ARP bolts, and at minimum change the lower 12 head studs to steel. Not sure if I really need more than the steel for this application? I could run my current heat exchangers with a J pipe for now if need be and upgrade to headers later.

If I reuse piston and cylinders, still within spec and use a thicker base shim and c2 head gaskets, reducing comp and increasing piston valve clearances, what cams can I run? Should I still stay with the Motronic cam or will this open a small window to upgrade and if so what would be a better choice 964 or 20/21?

This is enough for now; I have more questions for later
Thanks to every one for sharing your valuable knowledge, Paul

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Thank You for your time, Paul. We do because we can.
87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 01-17-2009, 09:51 AM
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Hmmmm I don't understand why no one has responded. I must have the plague or something. Perhaps no one saw the hummer in what I wrote or maybe I did not express myself properly? My head is just spinning trying to absorb all the information on here and I'm only looking for a little guidance to sort it out.

Given my druthers I would of purchased a 930 in the first place but at the time my choices were limited by price and availability. I went with the best option that I could afford and now I'm trying to do the best that I can with it. Thankfully its a good platform for converting.
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Thank You for your time, Paul. We do because we can.
87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 01-20-2009, 04:43 AM
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Paul, sound like a good plan, but i think you are being a little too conservative. With all or your work, just bolting on one of Ben's (mb911) turbo kits, you can easily make 400 hp. These engines are a lot tougher than u would think, if the tuning is done right, which in the case of a stock carrera running Motronic such as your's, amounts to calling up Todd at protomotive http://www.geocities.com/protomotive/products.html and telling him what you've done. He is the 'Turboing the Carrera' guru, and he will hook u up with a chip that will give you safe horsepower. He will even tell u what u can do 'while ur in there' to make more HP with his chips. BTW, in case u havent noticed, this is as much a 'porn' site as anything, so post some PIX. Good luck and welcome.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:58 AM
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Hey Juicersr, thanks for the input. I'm researching, learning and trying to get up to speed so I can have an intelligent conversation when I start making calls.

There is a tremendous amount of info on here but its hard to sort it all out and there are some missing bits that I'm trying to figure out. Like what is the maximum hp limitation with the Motronic cam and control system (barn door Air flow meter) etc.? I know I will need to upgrade the fuel pressure reg but do I really need variable rate unit or will a 3lb one be ok?
Once I can establish the ideal build parameters for this project I can bring it all together. Right now I still don't know enough and I'm looking at what others have done as a starting point.
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Thank You for your time, Paul. We do because we can.
87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 01-20-2009, 01:19 PM
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No Pics no LOVE!
Old 01-20-2009, 01:53 PM
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Ok, got it,,, include photos to receive the love. Here is one as she was this summer, consider this a before photo...
Things are about to change fast!
Just got off the phone from ordering: Dansk tubro racing headers
I just fell off the fence on which way to go!

Now which turbo? Thinking Garrett, but for my build which one?

and hopefully something like this after


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Thank You for your time, Paul. We do because we can.
87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 01-20-2009, 04:26 PM
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Wish I could help, but I'm not familar with the 3.2 or turbocharging it. Good luck!
Old 01-20-2009, 04:29 PM
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Paul,
How many miles on the engine? If there are close to 100K, you may want to think about new pistons and cylinders; considering the tolerances of course. This will also solve your problem of compression ratio being a bit high for a turbo. Reducing CR by changing deck height dimensions will lead to valvetrain geometry issues.
With all the head work, why not go to twin plug? Unless your pistons are flat, the flame propagation will be a problem for you.
How about some picture of the insides of your engine, that will get people motivated to chime in.

Welcome,
Mark
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:14 PM
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Sweet sally!
Old 01-20-2009, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucittm View Post
Paul,
How many miles on the engine? If there are close to 100K, you may want to think about new pistons and cylinders; considering the tolerances of course. This will also solve your problem of compression ratio being a bit high for a turbo. Reducing CR by changing deck height dimensions will lead to valvetrain geometry issues.
With all the head work, why not go to twin plug? Unless your pistons are flat, the flame propagation will be a problem for you.
How about some picture of the insides of your engine, that will get people motivated to chime in.

Welcome,
Mark
Hi Mark,
My engine has 140k on it but was well maintained the wear is minimal.
I plastigauged the rods and mains and was surprised to see them still within spec, regardless I'm installing new while I'm in there. The piston clearances are all good so I figure they will be OK for now and helps keep the cost down.

Originally I was debating increasing the bore to 98mm making it a 3.4 NA, but the costs are high and I would need cams and depending on the configuration twin pluging. The costs shoot up fast so in the end I figure you get more HP for the $ with going turbo. For now I'm trying to get the maximum HP within the confines of the Motronic sys. This way I can keep the initial cost down, keeping it a simpler build ,completed in less time.

Re:twin pluging; I haven't found anyone within 200 miles of me that's can do the machining for 10 or 12mm plugs. That and all the extra cost and complexity of the supporting systems, perhaps that will come with the next stage? Or perhaps I will learn the cutting angles and get set up to do them?

Re: possible valve train geometry issues. Personally I don't see that as an issue. From what I can make out the Promotive stage 2 kit goes this route. It only takes a .05mm shim on the bottom + the thickness of a C2turbo head gasket ring to drop the compression down to approx 8.8/1 Surely the cam chain adjuster can make up for this, the difference of deflection would be minimal less than .05mm. Perhaps I'm not seeing a potential pitfall and if so can someone please let me know.
I'm committed to doing a turbo conversion now, went ahead and ordered ARP head studs and Dansk header today. So let the fun begin!

Next purchase is the turbo, I'm thinking along the lines of a k7200 or GT30?

Re: photos, I suppose I should take a few photos along the way I'll work on that one.
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Thank You for your time, Paul. We do because we can.
87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 01-20-2009, 07:50 PM
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Paul,
I don't think you would need to change your cams for this kind of upgrade.

Everyone sends their heads out for twin-plugging. Yes, the the shipping cost is not trivial, but this is specialized work. My brother was born in Ontario, so I know your area a little. I would recommend someone on the east coast such as Xtreme Cylinder Heads in FL. Their advertised price is $350.00.
http://www.xtremecylinderheads.com/index.html
Also, JB Racing is in FL.
http://www.jbracing.com/services.php

I am not familiar with a Promotive stage 2 kit. My opinion is that the .05mm shim at the base of the cylinder will be just enough to upset the 140K miles of wear that your pistons and cylinders have accumulated. Maybe not. That shim will have very little effect on your CR.
The 1mm head gasket ring will reduce the CR. I'm not sure it will drop it to 8.8 and I'm not sure 8.8 is low enough. Even the newer 3.6 turbos only run 8.5 and they have forged pistons.
But you are correct, the impact to the cam chain deflection will be minor. However, the cam chain cases will no longer be in alignment with the cams/cam towers. This will require shimming the chain cases or shaving the cam towers.

ARP studs and a new exhaust system are worthwhile upgrades.

Mark
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Last edited by lucittm; 01-21-2009 at 05:12 AM..
Old 01-21-2009, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucittm View Post
Paul,
I don't think you would need to change your cams for this kind of upgrade.

Everyone sends their heads out for twin-plugging. Yes, the the shipping cost is not trivial, but this is specialized work. My brother was born in Ontario, so I know your area a little. I would recommend someone on the east coast such as Xtreme Cylinder Heads in FL. Their advertised price is $350.00.
http://www.xtremecylinderheads.com/index.html
Also, JB Racing is in FL.
http://www.jbracing.com/services.php

I am not familiar with a Promotive stage 2 kit. My opinion is that the .05mm shim at the base of the cylinder will be just enough to upset the 140K miles of wear that your pistons and cylinders have accumulated. Maybe not. That shim will have very little effect on your CR.
The 1mm head gasket ring will reduce the CR. I'm not sure it will drop it to 8.8 and I'm not sure 8.8 is low enough. Even the newer 3.6 turbos only run 8.5 and they have forged pistons.
But you are correct, the impact to the cam chain deflection will be minor. However, the cam chain cases will no longer be in alignment with the cams/cam towers. This will require shimming the chain cases or shaving the cam towers.

ARP studs and a new exhaust system are worthwhile upgrades.

Mark
Thanks for your input Mark and for pointing out the cam tower alignment, I missed that one. I will have a look at that one and look for possible solutions vs shaving the cam towers, rather not go that route, to permanent...
Yes your right that shimming the cyl might upset things a bit, I can live with that one.
Promotive is showing 9.5/1 on both their stage 1 and 1upgrade, and 8.8/1 on their stage 2 with .87b with a single plug. They even show their stage 3 , 7.0/1 at 1.25 bar of boost running a single plug head. Not sure how they are getting away with a single plug, but would love to know more. I'm looking at possibly adding water injection for a measure of safety.
More research is needed. Meanwhile I will keep searching and inquiring on dual plug route. Would love to go with that and coil on plugs, but Ouch it hurts the wallet!
I went ahead and ordered APR rod bolts and studs, and a new Dansk header.
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Thank You for your time, Paul. We do because we can.
87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 01-21-2009, 07:06 AM
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Good luck with build! You know the budget has to come first. Then plan it accordingly. Bet there are probably guys who have been planning a conversion yet their mechanics are retired and they are not in their turbo yet. Because your title says obsession we can kid with you. Are you serious about approaching 965 exterior when done? Have you seen the turbo motors currently on the market? I know you have seen the pristine 930 FS. Have you seen a couple of 930 track cars on the market?

When you get ready building is when the obsession begins. I can hear you murmuring is that EFI stuff for real? Do you have a first draft of your build sheet?

I like the enthusiasm. I like the project. Do you have the tools to put the motor back together/tune it for that matter? If not, on the advise from your builder tuner are your expectations within his line of expectations/goals. You know how our trusted techs get. How long before you start discussing your next upgrades?.

Seriously wishing you the best success. It sounds like you are preparing to button up the motor and do some good things.

The recommendation for which turbo (WG BOV et al) depends on your final selection of PNC/Hardware/TPlug/IC/exhaust/engine management. Once have all that, I would value sourcing information from the guys who helped source other key parts. For example if your builder has experience with your exhaust set up and is upgrading your ignition/fuel management he will have preference for a particular brand. Several different brand and size turbos are going to be satisfactory. The motor or at least have a list of its specification must be completed.

Regards,
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Old 01-21-2009, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BReyes View Post
Good luck with build! You know the budget has to come first. Then plan it accordingly. Bet there are probably guys who have been planning a conversion yet their mechanics are retired and they are not in their turbo yet. Because your title says obsession we can kid with you. Are you serious about approaching 965 exterior when done? Have you seen the turbo motors currently on the market? I know you have seen the pristine 930 FS. Have you seen a couple of 930 track cars on the market?

When you get ready building is when the obsession begins. I can hear you murmuring is that EFI stuff for real? Do you have a first draft of your build sheet?

I like the enthusiasm. I like the project. Do you have the tools to put the motor back together/tune it for that matter? If not, on the advise from your builder tuner are your expectations within his line of expectations/goals. You know how our trusted techs get. How long before you start discussing your next upgrades?.

Seriously wishing you the best success. It sounds like you are preparing to button up the motor and do some good things.

The recommendation for which turbo (WG BOV et al) depends on your final selection of PNC/Hardware/TPlug/IC/exhaust/engine management. Once have all that, I would value sourcing information from the guys who helped source other key parts. For example if your builder has experience with your exhaust set up and is upgrading your ignition/fuel management he will have preference for a particular brand. Several different brand and size turbos are going to be satisfactory. The motor or at least have a list of its specification must be completed.

Regards,
Hi Bernard, thanks for your interest.
I'm a semi-retired X mechanic with more time on my hands than money and thus will do all I can myself. I have lot,s of welding and fab exp including composites so not worried about custom mods and such. It's all for fun!
Given my druthers I would do a modified 964 or 993tt style exterior some thing like this. That will come later down the road, right now I has to perform first.


The engine ran fine, but I was getting nervous running it into the Redline with the mileage and valve guide wear. I had intended on freshing it up but Once out and apart I started playing what if with the upgrades The engine is out and apart so now is the time to do it. The build sheet is a work of progress limited my cost and the limitations of the Motronic sys.
I'm an old Dog that is still learning... and carefully taking in the comments and suggestions from the great people on this site.
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87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 01-21-2009, 08:29 AM
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Paul,
I just found the Promotive website:
http://www.geocities.com/protomotive/

I was not looking for a geocities webpage and when I saw this one, I was confused by your reference to Stage 1, etc.
http://www.promotive.com.au/

As you can see, it is good to provide a link to a business when you describe it (and the businesses appreciate it too!)

The Promotive Stage 1 kits will be like drugs, you'll get hooked and need more. Good luck.

I would still be very cautious applying boost to an otherwise stock N/A engine with 9.5/1 CR, high-dome cast pistons, high lift cams, and a standard lubrication and cooling system.

Mark
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucittm View Post
Paul,
I just found the Promotive website:
http://www.geocities.com/protomotive/

I was not looking for a geocities webpage and when I saw this one, I was confused by your reference to Stage 1, etc.
http://www.promotive.com.au/

As you can see, it is good to provide a link to a business when you describe it (and the businesses appreciate it too!)

The Promotive Stage 1 kits will be like drugs, you'll get hooked and need more. Good luck.

I would still be very cautious applying boost to an otherwise stock N/A engine with 9.5/1 CR, high-dome cast pistons, high lift cams, and a standard lubrication and cooling system.

Mark
Hi Mark, Point taken on providing links with future posts.

The Cylinders have 11 cooling fins, seems like more surface area than the 3.3 turbo jugs. Not sure if the pistons are cast or forged, there are no casting marks, if its a cast one then its so good that I can't tell. The underside # is 95p36++, I have done searches with the # on here, the net and on the Mahle search engines without any hits? One machine shop that seen them thought they were forged?
If they turn out to be cast, well that might just change things eh! Perhaps some one can help identify them?
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87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 01-21-2009, 09:32 AM
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Two types PNC. One was called Alusils. The other was called Nikasils. On NA I have had both types inspected approved by builder. The Alusils look different than the Nikasils.

Have seen 930 PNCs on the market recently not to mention lots of new ones. The machine shop can be made easily accessible with shippping via UPS ground. So yeah as far a twin plug- once have the PNC you can get the heads tapped/ massaged /resurfaced to match the PNC- and then do your exhaust or buy your kit. Do the motronic chip thing thing. Then can get your cam and hardware rings bearings and seals and put it together mount IC to it. This is like way beyond stage one. I want to make sure you enjoy your retirement too so cant spend it all on car.

Easy (OK guys this is the 934 car right here) for you to put 934 front valence and fender flares (you know you built plenty of fender flares back in the day for your favorite bodies.) Later you want a 993. Oh yes, have you seen 993 rear suspensions and custom turbos. Of course we like those too. But this is early turbo.

Yes you can put the motor together to accomplish your goals. There is hardware that you may want to send off to be cadium yellow anodized. Couple of things you can paint in your shop. The newly anodized hardware will not last and will oxidize from the elements but for that first few thousand miles you will have new.

Were you thinking of rear mount or side mount for the turbo? What IC do you have?
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Old 01-21-2009, 10:21 AM
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BTW taking the assumption to reuse PNC. There are one or two kits installed and running dwtailed in other threads. This would have a defined price and result in you running NA until kit in house. OK i just want to see pics of Turbo out in snow covered twisties.

Greetings from Florida. Only snow we get here (Tampa) is forecast snow.
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Old 01-21-2009, 10:31 AM
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I had a stock 3.2 with a fresh valve job that I put together with Ben's help in 2006 I think.
It's still running track days as is. At 10.5 PSI. 380 dynoed hp. Stock motronic + afm.
look around if you haven't yet, there are a few guys around with all the experience you need.
get Todd's rec for a turbo, or Ben, get the chip from Todd.
I'm around if you have questions.
Old 01-21-2009, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrinkley View Post
I had a stock 3.2 with a fresh valve job that I put together with Ben's help in 2006 I think.
It's still running track days as is. At 10.5 PSI. 380 dynoed hp. Stock motronic + afm.
look around if you haven't yet, there are a few guys around with all the experience you need.
get Todd's rec for a turbo, or Ben, get the chip from Todd.
I'm around if you have questions.
Thanks for the info, Its nice hearing from people that have gone this route with success. Just to confirm you ran stock pistons as is, no shims or adding a head gasket and with a single plug, right?

What chip did you run?

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87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 01-21-2009, 11:44 AM
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