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Originally Posted by juicersr View Post
Fu@# Weideking... that smarmy little bean-counter saved Porche for what?? So it could sell minivans and sedans??? He almost killed the one righteous move Porsche has made in the last several years, the Carrera GT. And what does he/Porsche do when it returns to 'profitablity'? Start working all out on how to beat Audi (Do you think Norbert Singer, Piech or Ferry would have let that one stand)? Start developing the Cayman into the great racing platform it could be? Start offering a total range of performance options on it's lower model ranges. No, it acquires VW! There are so many thing wrong with the company, where do u begin?

Groovie, man u are so right. I would tell u about my sad but true story of test driving the Cayman S (i know, i know, it was a temporary moment of weakness, but i was going to give the car the benefit of the doubt) two year ago, but suffice to say that when the sales guys couldnt convince me of it's 'great' performance' in relation to my Z or SC, they tried to seal the deal by offering to throw in a 'Genuine Porsche Jacket'! I kid u not! I walked away disgusted. But that interaction was symbolic of where things are today.
What was the Cayman S like? I am curious to know what you liked and disliked about it, because I probably won't ever get to drive one since I would just buy a 996TT for that kind of money. Or better yet, another 930...
Old 01-20-2009, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DDDD View Post
What was the Cayman S like? I am curious to know what you liked and disliked about it, because I probably won't ever get to drive one since I would just buy a 996TT for that kind of money. Or better yet, another 930...
Let's just put it this way: If i were to do a blind-folded 'taste-test' between the Cayman S and a properly set up 350Z, the Cayman S (forget about the base Cayman) would prolly win by a slight margin in the sound and handling dept. HOWEVER, 1) It just didnt FEEL all that different or faster from the Z and 2) It cost OVER 2x as much. The point is, the Cayman S felt like just another car, with ok suspension, handling and power, brakes, but i can find those same criteria these days on any one of a number of car lots for a lot less.

Now, if you were to get a used Cayman S with low miles, plug an LSD in and then take it to TPC and give it 486 Turbo'd HP, then give it great brakes and wider wheels... u would have a helluva car. (You could also get a good used and sorted 996tt for that money as well, as stated in a recent thread) But shouldn't Porsche be offering us all that (at least as an option) in the first place for the kind of money it asks?
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Old 01-20-2009, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DDDD View Post
What was the Cayman S like? I am curious to know what you liked and disliked about it, because I probably won't ever get to drive one since I would just buy a 996TT for that kind of money. Or better yet, another 930...
Here are my impressions of the Cayman S:

Exterior:
Exterior design is weak and will be outdated quickly, like every other contemporary Porsche. Gimmick scoops and complicated "details" don't age well - they're used by designers to make new cars look "new", but they're no substitute for an aesthetically complete design. Certainly there won't be any Cayman posters on kids' walls, especially not 5 or 10 years from now.

Interior:
Typical new Porsche - looks and feels like (pick a Japanese car), soft touch materials won't age well, overall luxury car feel. Cupholders, sat nav, faux aluminum accents - just like Dr. Porsche always dreamed of

Driving Impressions:
Again, typical new Porsche - good chassis, powerful brakes - but completely uninvolving and sanitized. PSM that can't be turned off (yeah you can turn it off, but it kicks back in it thinks you're having too much fun). NO LSD (what the hell?) is very noticeable, especially since it feels like the traction control tries to compensate. Brakes are way over-assisted, steering is slightly over-assisted but still has decent feel. Stock suspension is soft and tuned for extreme understeer, presumably to keep the latte drinking soccer daddies from getting into any trouble (although I must admit, Porsche has done this for decades). The engine has the passionless rasp of a 350Z, mechanical, but sanitized and soulless - as if you're listening to a recording of an engine. But that might have as much to do with noise regulations in the EU as anything else, so perhaps blame isn't squarely on Porsche. Bling-bling 19" wheels to keep up with the Jones's, etc. Your basic all-around yuppie car. Oh, and the quality is also typical new age Porsche: style over substance. These cars will be gracing a landfill near you in 10 years time...

In a nutshell:
Is it a capable car? Yes. Is it fun to drive? Maybe for a day. Is it challenging to drive? About as challenging to master as a battery-powered Barbie Jeep. Will they stand the test of time? Not a chance, in my opinion. Forgettable, disposable Porsches.
Old 01-20-2009, 04:01 PM
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Yeah, Porsche is shadow of it's former self. They sold cars based on winning race cars. Not any more.

Nowadays, you see soccer moms in their SUVs. The panamera? What a joke. Who wants a four sedan from Porsche? Certainly no car enthusiast.

Is Porsche not privatly owned? Yet they still build bloated ugly cars for the masses to make über profits that doesn't make it back into racing.

To me, Porsche was a minimalistic car, with a seat of the pants feel. Does the SUV or Panamera provide that? I doubt it.
Old 01-20-2009, 04:20 PM
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So the Cayman S is reduced to a "passionless rasp" in my mind. lol.

Yeah, I have a 1976 930 and I don't even want a 1977 because they added power brakes.

So the Cayman might be a little sanitized for me too.
Old 01-20-2009, 04:27 PM
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EVOLVE OR DIE!
thats what Porsche has done, I am a purest and nothing can beat a 930 for that raw "holy **** this car is going to kill me rush". I dont agree with a Boxster or Panamera, (indifferent about the Cayenne) but without these offerings Porsche would not have survived just selling 911s.
We have done nothing to support Porsche either, how many OEM parts have been purchased for our older cars or who takes them to a Porsche dealer...I know I don't. I would love to be able to support the brand by buying a C4S or Cayenne but not a financial option.
Racing as much as I love it and have worked in the motorsports industry for years doesnt sell cars.
Win on Sunday sell on Monday was a product of the 70s...Doesn't happen anymore

I love my car, love Porsche and the good people on these forums but Porsche has done everything right IMO (Panamera???) to weather the storms to be an industry leader and to be around for another 60 years


EVOLVE OR DIE. ( or we would be wearing bell bottoms and listening to ABBA)
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Old 01-20-2009, 05:40 PM
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Cowtown, you have an excellent point that these cars saved Porsche so it could continue to thrive, but what would the expense be to add options for the true enthusiasts?

I don't think I'd mind all the other cars as much if Porsche still offered a stripped down, big hp and well setup version of them besides the GT2 & 3. Even those are far from spartan, but for the price paid people expect more goodies.

In the end its not that we're upset Porsche did what it had to do to survive, but that it won't turn back around and honor its heritage, to get back out on that race track and put foot to ass and take over like they did in the end days of Can Am. I follow Porsche racing fleetingly now because I don't like to continually read about Porsche losing and moving farther from the front of the pack. I'm no fair weather friend, but I can't say they're actually trying anymore.

But unlike so many of the posts and threads on other boards and forums - we're not just sitting around getting all dumpy about it. We're already taking things into our own hands, and just with the members of this board, the cars represented here show that we're committed to pushing forward with the true direction the company should be reaquiring.

We may not be buying parts from Porsche directly anymore, but that's because we're improving them, and getting small products that are R&D'd on the race track for our rides. If Porsche offered any of the parts on my car, I'd buy them. If they still offerend even half of their vintage stuff - they'd be raking in the cash. In 90% of the cases, we try to sort out the old factory stuff, the rare and unobtainium parts in order to be more "correct".

The problem is that Porsche stopped making stuff we wanted, and started focusing on what size coffee mug would best suit their product line. And we're F'n pissed about it - but instead of mopping around, myself, Juicersr, Matteo, VZ935, URY914, Tarheel, Miguel, Rarlyl8, the good men at Zuffenhaus, Elephant Racing, 930gt-40r, Cly8ton, JohnJL, Onboost, and about 8 million other guys are in the trenches fighting the good fight. And that, IMHO, is what shows that the spirit and essence are not only alive and well, but thriving.
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:37 PM
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to get back out on that race track and put foot to ass and take over like they did in the end days of Can Am.
I want to see a 2009 917 with modern day: fuel injection, turbo technology, inter cooler technology, and the same weight that it had back then (no b.s safety crap.... and no lawyers either).

How about 997/934 tribute car with one turbo and weighing in a 2,500 lbs?

What about a Real 550 tribute car (could be based off the Boxter) with no interior, a GT-3 RS motor, and tipping the scales at 2,200 lbs (don't tell me it cant be done with technology today)

I will never know why the good old days of super cars are dead, but I do know that I will never forget the real from the fake. Todays cars from all manufacturers are a shell of what they used to be as far a quality of materials and imagination it concerned (who gives a rats ass about a Cayenne GTS???). If you think Porsche is the only one your wrong- Don't tell me that you think a 2008 Ferrari 430 has as much magic that the 512 TR did just a decade and a half earlier? Of course its faster through technology and a great car, but it is not half the Ferrari that the 512TR was.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:14 PM
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Yeah I agree, bring back the 924s and 944s, re-release the 911 2.7Ss, they were barn stormers, I'm sick of this GT3RS and GT2 sh#t...
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:09 PM
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a couple of years old but case in point...the money is there to do what it did in the 70's and 80's to a factor of 10, but they just don't do it.

"A study by B&D Forecast released in German newspaper Welt am Sonntagearlier this week revealed that Porsche, one of the most prestigious names in the automotive industry, is by far the most profitable automaker on a vehicle by vehicle basis. Porsche makes an unheard of €21,799 profit on each car it sells! This isn't to say that Porsche is making €21,799 ($28,247 USD) straight up on every vehicle it makes, but rather that it earns variable profits, with some more (Cayenne Turbo S) and some less (Boxster). To see just how badly Porsche blows other automakers out of the water, have a look at these figures. BMW makes €2,475 ($3,207) for each car it sells - a handsome figure, no question. Toyota pulls in an average of €1,684 ($2,182), while Audi makes €1,580 ($2,047). DaimlerChrysler
(including Mercedes-Benz and Smart) makes €708 ($917), and VW makes just €332 ($430) per vehicle. The study, which looked at the company's finances over 2005-2006 financial year, also revealed that Porsche sold 97,000 units and had a record gain of €2.11 billion ($2.73 bn) before taxes."

http://car-reviews.automobile.com/ne...-vehicle/2628/
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowtown10 View Post
EVOLVE OR DIE!
thats what Porsche has done, I am a purest and nothing can beat a 930 for that raw "holy **** this car is going to kill me rush". I dont agree with a Boxster or Panamera, (indifferent about the Cayenne) but without these offerings Porsche would not have survived just selling 911s.
We have done nothing to support Porsche either, how many OEM parts have been purchased for our older cars or who takes them to a Porsche dealer...I know I don't. I would love to be able to support the brand by buying a C4S or Cayenne but not a financial option.
Racing as much as I love it and have worked in the motorsports industry for years doesnt sell cars.
Win on Sunday sell on Monday was a product of the 70s...Doesn't happen anymore

I love my car, love Porsche and the good people on these forums but Porsche has done everything right IMO (Panamera???) to weather the storms to be an industry leader and to be around for another 60 years


EVOLVE OR DIE. ( or we would be wearing bell bottoms and listening to ABBA)
Sorry bro, but u missed the point of this thread entirely.

Let me break it down as simply as possible.

Say you like a shirt that is made in a certain way, with a certain cloth, cut, style, etc. U buy it, not just because of the style, but because of the fabric used, how it is made by the company, etc. U just like how it feels and looks. Then, suppose the company starts using polyester or whatever, plastic instead of mother of pearl buttons, and starts having it mass produced overseas, so quality, fit suffers. Yes, it allows the company to survive, but even if it is still the same company and shirt... would U still buy it???

Or, look at i another way. Suppose in 1964/65 a financial crisis had struck Porsche and they had brought in another Weidking to striaghten things out? Do u think that all the things u love about Porsche, the cars that MADE Porsche, including the 930 that sits in your driveway, would be there? The fact is that Porsche went through a bunch of mini financial crisis throughout its history, but they always maintained their committment to building as fast a car as possible (primarily because of Ferry still being around, but also because of the attitudes of the men at the helm - Metzger, Furhmann, Piech, etc.), and having a 'take no prisoners' attitude on the track, even when on the 'balance sheet' they could not afford it! I dont have a problem with porsche surviving, but the problem is that once the company has been 'saved' by Weedking, he has been allowed to direct all other aspects of the company to the exclusion of the attitude that made Porsche what it is, that is all.

I have $$ to spend on car stuff, but i dont think that i should have to spend $120,000 to get the kind of performance i can get with $30-50,000. I buy what performs best for the $$$, not just because it has a certain name.

I do support Porsche, and have over the last 15 years every time i buy their increasingly price-gouging parts.

And spence, while I agree that the 924 and 911 2.7 were dogs, look what Porsche made them into.... the later 911's and the 944S and 944 GTR that gabe mentioned. I dont see porsche doing $hit with the caymen, boxster except slapping expensive BS options on them that are meant for the country-club set and not enthusiast.

Finally, without involving all of it's products lines in racing, Porsche is simply just another car company, period. All of us here enjoy our 930's because they ARE products of a racing mentality. Without that, should i really careif Porsche is around for another 60 years, having 'evolved' into making minivans and sedans or whatever other crappy, unexciting car model like everyone else?

I remember an interesting quote by Ernst Fuhrmann from 'Excellence was Expected: 'It belongs to us, this racing business. We are often asked why we spend so much on it, from advertising, or motivation or engineering know-how. There is no single apsect that accounts for it, but [sic] that racing inspires'

Racing and speed is passion and soul and this used to flow through Porsche. I wish it would again.

BTW, i always hated ABBA.
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:20 AM
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Cowtown:

I DO TRY TO BUY PARTS FROM PORSCHE.

I waited over a year to get a friggin bushing for my 1976 930.

They no longer make anything to replace my tranny mounts with (76 has pressed in mounts), so I will literally need to weld other mounts into place or go solid.

PORSCHE DOES NOT WANT MY BUSINESS.
Old 01-21-2009, 06:44 AM
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Juicersr,
I totally understand the thread, i did not miss anything. I was simply adding my thoughts to the discussion, instead of bashing them I thought about playing devils advocate to stir the pot a bit... Do i agree with everything Porsche has done...absolutely not but am I happy they are still in business yes. The only thing I dont get is why all the negativity toward the CEO and Porsche. they did what they had to do. And we do what we have to do to keep the passion about our cars

I am all about the heritage and soul. I get it! thats why I drive one that s why I participate on this forum to celebrate the heritage of the brand and keep it alive.
Does it make my angry when a douche in a 996/7 TT rolls around like he is the **** or his douchebag friend pulls up in his Cayenne on 22s, yeah it makes me sick, (or when Porsche comes out this a Fugly 4 door) becasue they dont get it. But when I line up with them this spring once my car is back together and I take him apart off the line...he wont understand why, he'll probably just go back to the dealership and tell them there is something wrong with his car because a 24 year old car just feed him his ass. And that will give me the most satisfaction knowing he has no clue about the soul and racing heritage of these cars. I get it.

And ABBA was a bad choice...I am a product of the 80s so maybe DuranDuran would have been a better choice.
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:45 AM
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Porsche demise

These justifiable rants concerning Porsche's demise can just as easily and accurately be applied to the sad downturn in American culture and politics.
Both by and large are failures (with a very few exceptions) at this point.

EPS - Tucson
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:53 AM
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All Porsche has to do is offer stripped down entry models with no frills, and stop intentionally hindering their newer and better mid-engine chassis to make us happy.

We are not asking them to re-invent the wheel.

We would tolerate the ridiculous minivan crapola if they also included enthusiast models that don't cost 200,000 grand.

I would think it would be easier to produce a stripped down car, no? Just leave all the worthless accessories out of the car. Let people choose whether they want a pig heavy sunroof that they will never use.

A friggin computer screen? Why is it that nobody can just read a map to find a destination anymore. I can't remember the last time I was actually lost and needed kitcar to save me.
Where is it that people are driving that they need computers to help them get there???

Back seats? For who?

No limited slip differential? Are you kidding?


A PDK that shifts BACKWARDS to appease Porsche marketing, and Porsche marketing alone.

Following that logic, maybe we should need to pull up on the brake pedal as well? Might as well coordinate all the functions backwards.

If that CEO had a heart attack tomorrow, I can't say that I would care.

Last edited by DDDD; 01-21-2009 at 07:01 AM..
Old 01-21-2009, 06:57 AM
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DDDD, A-FUKIN'-MEN...

Give me a Caymen S with a turbo, a vinyl strip of the windshield so I can delete the sun visors and no interior, a roll hoop, with bigger rubber = hog heaven.

Addition by subtraction as its called.

And +100 on the backseats....who the hell are these for?
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Old 01-21-2009, 07:32 AM
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These justifiable rants concerning Porsche's demise can just as easily and accurately be applied to the sad downturn in American culture and politics.
Both by and large are failures (with a very few exceptions) at this point.

EPS - Tucson
Couldn't have said it better myself. They're all symptoms of the same disease.
Old 01-21-2009, 07:44 AM
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Good luck trying to start a similar conversation on Rennlist - you'll be ignored, impuned, and called everything from "luddite" to "insecure" to "homophobic." I'm afraid the current-day Porsche community is about as hard core as the girl scouts.

Anyway, I agree with everything stated above. I just bought my dream car, a '91 C2 Turbo, and will NEVER sell it. If I have to learn to fabricate parts myself to keep this car on the road 5, 10, or 20 years from now, I'll do it.

The world around us is becoming a politically correct nightmare ruled by moral equivalence and the worship of style over substance. But that just means, as said before, that we have an obligation to preserve and protect those things which are REAL. Starting with important things like the Constitution - and right on down to our favorite toys (930s!)
Welcome to the fray. I spent a while over at RL before settling on this forum. I got sick of the snobbery and elitism over there, even on our 964 Turbo forum. Folks telling me, people who've never met me or know anything about me, that "you can't just EFI your car by yourself..." Really? No, YOU can't, but I can. Rather than line up to spend $4,000 for a "real" set of Speedlines, idol-worship the genuine Bad Boys car, and bicker over OEM floormats I tore down, rebuilt and modded the ***** out of my engine over the last 5 months. IMHO I am making the 965 that the Porsche engineers were trying to get to market for '91, but the bean-counters cock-blocked.
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Last edited by AFM744; 01-21-2009 at 07:57 AM..
Old 01-21-2009, 07:51 AM
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well i just hate i havent had a chance to chime in sooner, but now i'm upset!!

unfortunatly i have to agree with point of view that sometimes it takes models like the boxster and cayenne to provide the sales to keep the company alive, thats ok, but just like everyone has said it is so dissapointed that they went to the trouble to make a car like a cayman, and then no use it to its potential, i was just daydreaming the other day, can you imagine how awesome a cayman model that they stripped to 2500lbs and put a carrera S motor with with rolled fenders fat tires and an LSD would be ? and so what if its better than the base 911, did they think maybe they should improve on it, more? maybe do something a little more cutting edge step out on a limb to create something amazing?

I think the saddest day i've had in my car world in the past few years was finding out that a ****ING DATSUN (aka gtr) was able to beat the turbo and even the GT2 around the Ring, shouldn't that be the track german sports cars should detroy all? or am i missing something, its one thing to make a cheap car to sell to the masses, but the top of the madel range, top everything 200k car should laugh a that stupid japanese toy. the GTR is hardly a sports car at all, its a extremely advanced video game that my grandmother could probably lap with the best of them,
Point is , datsun should not be able to, no matter what computer they put in their cars or how sophisticated, or powerful , be able to beat the best porsche has to offer at any track.. EVER!!!!!!!!
Perhaps if the turbo and GT2 weren't such fat asses and were a little stripped down machines and they should be, it shouldn't be that hard to get a GT2 to 3000lbs? i mean ****ing corvette doesn't have a problem building a 640bhp 3100lb car for half the money of the GT2?

Unfortunatly instead of change i have a feeling 10 years from now the only thing you'll be able to buy new is electric cars with no soul, or gay biodiesel ****! haha
Old 01-21-2009, 08:03 AM
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Old 01-21-2009, 09:04 AM
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