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I'm also racking my brain about your pull through design, we've had this argument before.
put a bunch of pictures up and tell what they've done and what you've bought and you'll get some good advice I think.
I'm curious of your cost
Old 01-23-2009, 09:23 AM
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MiamiTurbo
 
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I don't know whats in there now. Looking back to when I bought the parts (November) the seller says that I would need to change the spring in the wastegate. Its a Tial. Where could I purchase that? I have not installed the boost gauge yet as it has not arrived. I drove the car home (about 7 miles) in traffic, from the shop and the oil temp never got above normal and only really turned on once I was a block from home. This was heavy traffic so I could not really get on it. I have an intercooler already here is a picture I hope its acceptable ;-)
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Old 01-23-2009, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanabe911 owner View Post
I don't know whats in there now. Looking back to when I bought the parts (November) the seller says that I would need to change the spring in the wastegate. Its a Tial. Where could I purchase that? I have not installed the boost gauge yet as it has not arrived. I drove the car home (about 7 miles) in traffic, from the shop and the oil temp never got above normal and only really turned on once I was a block from home. This was heavy traffic so I could not really get on it. I have an intercooler already here is a picture I hope its acceptable ;-)
Wow!! be careful boosting that thing until you know how much boost you're running I'd hate for you to lose the motor before you get a chance to play with it.
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Last edited by crimson ghost; 01-23-2009 at 11:28 AM..
Old 01-23-2009, 11:25 AM
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MiamiTurbo
 
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I have not turned it on again since I parked it Monday :-( I am going to tinker this weekend and see what I can find out.
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Old 01-23-2009, 12:35 PM
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Alex Glad it works well. I am interested in the draw through as well very interesting though I would find some better tubing maybe scat or sceet tubing here www.wag-aero.com As to springs I can help you out as I sell tial so let me know what you need.
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:04 PM
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Hello Ben

Hello Ben, The exhaust sounds amazing! What I need is whatever you guys think will be safe for a non-intercooled application like mine. 6lb's or 8lb's, what increments do they offer from Tial. Also on the pull thru, what other way could I set this up, please help! The installer said he has performed that pull through modification (his choice of words) on many 930's and its worth 20-30 HP . Is this crap? I don't know please guide me? The installed also told me to not install an 02 sensor, that it would run richer that way and be safer. Thoughts?
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:32 PM
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Cost

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrinkley View Post
I'm also racking my brain about your pull through design, we've had this argument before.
put a bunch of pictures up and tell what they've done and what you've bought and you'll get some good advice I think.
I'm curious of your cost
The installed designed the pull though claims its 20-30 HP mod (his words), dont know. As for cost I spent $2750 for:
* 50mm Tial Blowoff Valve (New)
* 46mm Tial Wastegate (Lightly used)
* Garrett T06 Turbo (Used in great condition)
* Custom Chain Cover with oil drain conversion
* Custom Intake Pipe, adapter and Silicone connectors
* Cartech / Bell Engineering (B.E.G.I.) Rising Rate Adjustable Fuel Regulator (FMU) 2025 (Lightly used)
* Custom Stainless Headers, Oil Tank & Stainless braid tubing (New)
* Custom Full Bay Aluminum Intercooler (New)
* Custom 24 pin Stage 1 and Stage 3 Protomotive ECU Chips

Then I returned the Turbo for $650 credit and purchased a rebuilt K26 for $750. Paid $400 for the exhaust. So so far I'm in $3250 in parts, plus labor.
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:40 PM
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MiamiTurbo
 
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Lat night I found a brand new boost gauge in my garage from a left over Turbo Miata project that I sold. Comes complete, just dont have a clue as to where to mount it, of more importantly, where to tap into to make it work. Read somewhere that sometimes you tap into the system near the brake booster. Any ideas?
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Old 01-24-2009, 07:44 AM
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I can't wait to see the next response for that question... sub'd!!!
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Old 01-24-2009, 08:50 AM
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I wouldn't know a difference on the pull or push thing, never seen a pull through. But that's how 951s are so who knows. Just wonder the rational.
Some get a signal form the brake booster, I like the throttle body. Mine was vac and boost.

Ben has springs.
I wouldn't go over the .6 bar spring. And I would be nervous about not monitoring afr.
I agree with the no o2 sensor comment. useless.

If I had that I bet I would leave it as is. Install IC, get a wideband and watch.
Get the .6 spring or a boost controller. Or don't so you won't be tempted.
Ask proto where the rev limiter is set. Try not to go there. Keep it around 6000 max.
Keep in mind that the tach is probably off in the higher range.
Order a camera from amazon, I like the small powershots.
Get everything safe before you spend money on making it pretty.
Old 01-24-2009, 09:28 AM
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you probably need some stuff from this place for that IC
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/index.php?cPath=14&osCsid=bee2cbe850ee2f7f6be6792de6642b27
took me a while to find these bending reducers.

some other places
http://www.hosetechniques.com/
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/
http://www.egauges.com/
http://www.geocities.com/protomotive/
http://www.tialsport.com/

Last edited by jbrinkley; 01-24-2009 at 09:36 AM..
Old 01-24-2009, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanabe911 owner View Post
Hello Ben, The exhaust sounds amazing! What I need is whatever you guys think will be safe for a non-intercooled application like mine. 6lb's or 8lb's, what increments do they offer from Tial. Also on the pull thru, what other way could I set this up, please help! The installer said he has performed that pull through modification (his choice of words) on many 930's and its worth 20-30 HP . Is this crap? I don't know please guide me? The installed also told me to not install an 02 sensor, that it would run richer that way and be safer. Thoughts?

check out tialsport.com and click on springs for all your options. decide what you want. I may even have one here in stock. they sell for 27.95
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Old 01-25-2009, 03:53 AM
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MiamiTurbo
 
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Boost Gauge

Thanks Ben, I need to figure out whats in there now. So, yesterday I tapped into the brake booster line and connected my boost gauge. But there is something wrong, or I connected it wrong. The gauge seems to work fine at first, you start the car and it starts to read vaccum like between, the it stays there and continues reading vaccum, even when you shut the car down! It stays like this until I pull the line from the back of the gauge. Any thoughts? Did I install it wrong? The gauge might be bad? I tapped into the 15/32 line that is a U shape that comes from the booster to a fitting on the car.
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:49 AM
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I think pull though would be a better setup than what I have where it pushes through, would be a cleaner boosted charge, less turbulence. If your mechanic says he performs this mod on 930s he's talking BS as they don't have an afm.
Old 01-25-2009, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence88mph View Post
I think pull though would be a better setup than what I have where it pushes through, would be a cleaner boosted charge, less turbulence. If your mechanic says he performs this mod on 930s he's talking BS as they don't have an afm.
AMF Draw through VS Forced?

This question is on my mind also as Iím trying to figure out which way to go with my own 3.2 turbo conversion. It would be great to have both intake layouts compared side by side on the same motor, that would give the merits of each one and give us a real answer on which is the better way to go.
Perhaps those with experience with either system would be so kind to give their feedback.

Iíll put in my 2 cents worth on the topicÖ.

In the N/A configuration using the spring loaded barn door Motronic Air Flow Meter (AFM),,, it is placed close to the throttle plate. I think it is located there for a reason, its placement minimizes the volume of the connecting hose between the two so that this design of AFM will work efficiently.
Because Air is compressible we do not have the benefits of direct proportional transfer as we would with Fluids. This means that the total volume of the connecting ductwork will determine the efficiency of the AFM response. I suspect that increased volume of the intake air circuit (ducting length) in a Draw system would induce a proportional delay in response time, to the ECM causing lean AF flat spot in acceleration.

In my opinion the ideal intake ducting design using Motronic AFM would be one that had a cross sectional area needed for unrestricted flow, routed directly as possible from the turbo to the throttle plate body, keeping the total volume to a minimum. This ideal is soon compromised with the addition of an Intercooler. If you look at intercooler flow numbers you will see that there is a pressure drop from the input charge to the output. The trade off is a cooler charge that produces more HP and engine longevity but at the cost of lag.
Every one talks about turbo lag relating to the hot side because it is the greater factor, but what about the often-overlooked lag on the cold side. In creating boost the turbo compress the air on the cold side and the larger the total volume of the air circuit from the turbo housing to the intake valve the longer it will take to flow and develop boost and that means greater lag and slower response time.

In our low boost applications it could be argued that you could gain more by running a water/alcohol system to for our charge cooling needs than running a big IC. The bonus with running W/A is, that it has the effect of increasing the octane rating, reducing the potential for detonation while supplying additional fueling and cooling requirements brought on by boosting. The other benefit is that your motor is not sucking in all the hot air coming out of the IC for its own cooling needs.

I donít think the Motronic AFM was given design considerations to run in a boost application and perhaps thatís why they are modified by companies like Promotive. (I would like to know what is done internally?)
Personally I think itís better located as close as possible to the throttle body under boost verses long routed vacuum paths of the Draw systems.
Some will argue that the AFM is to restrictive on the boost side and you loose pressure through it, Yes you do lose a bit just like you do when you add an IC but the gains are greater than the losses of operating it from the intake side of the turbo. Think about it, would you rather have your restriction on the intake side of the turbo, plus all the additional restriction from the longer ducting path or from a shorter more direct route running under Pressure? I think the AFM will respond quicker and more efficiently mounted directly before the Throttle Body, boost on or off.

If you have a Draw system already or if this is your preferred choice, then why not consider relocating the AFM for sorter and more direct routing. Itís only a matter of lengthening the harness to it and fabricating a new mounting bracket.
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Old 01-26-2009, 06:36 AM
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Mine is blow through and it works great.

427 wheel horsepower with 1 bar, SC cams, and turbo pistons.

Proto chip.
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Old 01-26-2009, 10:31 AM
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I am interested in the blow through vs suck through argument, because I am planning on turboing my 3.2.

Here is my thoughts on this:

The AFM measures flow, not mass flow. It does not know the pressure of the air. On a blow through, say you were at 1 bar of boost, there would be roughly twice as much air going through for the same AFM reading. This is OK because the rising rate regulator is also increasing fuel flow proportionally to boost. I would think you would need a different chip for a suck through.

Arguments against suck through:

On stock NA engines, I believe the AFM maxes out at high RPM. With a suck through boosted application the increase air flow would cause the AFM to max out at even lower RPM's, and you will lose all part throttle air/fuel ratio controll. You would need an AFM with a greater range.

Also a turbocharger is more sensative to pressure drop on the suction side.

Just my .02
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Old 01-26-2009, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midlife View Post
I am interested in the blow through vs suck through argument, because I am planning on turboing my 3.2.

Here is my thoughts on this:

The AFM measures flow, not mass flow. It does not know the pressure of the air. On a blow through, say you were at 1 bar of boost, there would be roughly twice as much air going through for the same AFM reading. This is OK because the rising rate regulator is also increasing fuel flow proportionally to boost. I would think you would need a different chip for a suck through.

Arguments against suck through:

On stock NA engines, I believe the AFM maxes out at high RPM. With a suck through boosted application the increase air flow would cause the AFM to max out at even lower RPM's, and you will lose all part throttle air/fuel ratio controll. You would need an AFM with a greater range.

Also a turbocharger is more sensative to pressure drop on the suction side.

Just my .02
Hi, Seems like there are quite a few of us at various stages performing this 3.2 Turbo conversion, contemplating Draw VS Blow. Perhaps if we post this as a new thread we might get more feedback?

Re: the AFM here is a link from Proto on pros & cons of some different systems
http://www.geocities.com/protomotive/psvsaf.htm

Personally, I would like to do away with the Moto AFM and go to something better and perhaps this will come later, but for now lets get this working at its best.
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Old 01-27-2009, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Tippy View Post
Mine is blow through and it works great.

427 wheel horsepower with 1 bar, SC cams, and turbo pistons.

Proto chip.
Hi, 427 HP @ 1 bar! nice very nice, please tell us more about your set up.


What size and comp ratio are your turbo pistons?
What fuel pressure reg are you using and what's your pressure settings?
Are you still running stock injectors?
I/C size?

Any pictures?

Thanks
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Thank You for your time, Paul. We do because we can.
87 911 3.2 (Turbo conversion, build in progress, Thermal Barrier Coatings, High Pressure Dry film coatings) Modified heads, boat-tailed case, ARP hardware, OBX Header, 930 clutch disk, G50 Trans
89 5.0 Mustang convertible (For Sale)
Old 01-27-2009, 02:20 AM
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I have completed the turbo conversion and can speak from experience unlike your speculation above. I can tell you that many turbos blow oil through the intake, not good for an AFM, I can tell you the AFM's threads will thread very easily as it's made of crappy cast alloy so getting a good strong seal to it is a PITA unless you helicoil it which I ended up doing (no biggie).

Unless you modify the exit with a retaining flange there's a good chance you will blow off the elbow to the throttle body. This has happened to me and friends cars many times. All these issues would not be a factor with suck through, that is why I am saying it would likely be a better set up and it's not new I've seen it on a few cars with good results.

The only reason I'm not converting to suck through as I did contemplate it, is I'm converting to MAP in the next couple of weeks, as soon as I get a chance to install the sensor. I'll also be able to tell you all how soon the flapper maxes out which I'm predicting would be very early in the rev range like 2500rpm but it's speculation. You could test this by connecting a volt meter to the AFM signal and see where and when it hits 5.0V.

Quote:
In the N/A configuration using the spring loaded barn door Motronic Air Flow Meter (AFM),,, it is placed close to the throttle plate. I think it is located there for a reason, its placement minimizes the volume of the connecting hose between the two so that this design of AFM will work efficiently.
Not correct, it measures flow not pressure/volume.

Quote:
I don’t think the Motronic AFM was given design considerations to run in a boost application and perhaps that’s why they are modified by companies like Promotive. (I would like to know what is done internally?)
Oh ok, that's why Porsche used it in the 951 and hmmm wonder if they chose blow through or suck through, do some research....

Quote:
you loose pressure through it, Yes you do lose a bit just like you do when you add an IC but the gains are greater than the losses of operating it from the intake side of the turbo.
And your findings here are based on?

Sick of the bench racers!!!
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Old 01-27-2009, 02:45 AM
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