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DonE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Good info. I use the LINK EFI system with 6 open analog and 3 digital channels. In addition, at the flick of a switch, I can change run files from "with WI" to "without WI". I think I'm gonna give this a try, but I have a feeling I will need a larger water tank.

And BoxxerSix - thanks for the great PM and all the info.
Old 02-06-2009, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonE View Post
Good info. I use the LINK EFI system with 6 open analog and 3 digital channels. In addition, at the flick of a switch, I can change run files from "with WI" to "without WI". I think I'm gonna give this a try, but I have a feeling I will need a larger water tank.

And BoxxerSix - thanks for the great PM and all the info.
Not a problem Don. And with the way your car is setup, Aquamist 2D is going to be your best bet for "tunability" and build quality. Again, they're the only prebuilt systems I use on my own personal cars, even the turbocharged 600cc "DSR" sprots racer I'm building.

And yes, get at least a good 3-4 gallon cell, or plastic weld up something that fits the 930 bonnet nicely
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Old 02-06-2009, 07:42 PM
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I just found this thread - glad to see the P cars are coming around. After falling in love with the idea of meth injection from info gleaned from the Evo/Sube guys, I have been designing my engine around this constraint. The major reasons I have decided to go with a staged 100% meth injection system are the cooling and octane advantages of this setup.

My plan is to run relatively high static compression. The evaporative cooling and knock resistance should allow a turbo 911 to run static CRs close to watercooled motors. The advantage of running static CR in the high 8s for offline performance is pretty evident, especially in a small turbo like mine (2.3L). I firmly believe that 9:1 @ 1 BAR is reliably possible with 100% meth and a big water/air IC.

In terms of failsafes, If you go with engine management/EFI, it is pretty darned safe to run meth injection, since most newer meth systems have fault detection. Additionally, many of the newer engine management systems like Don's Link allow not only mutliple maps, but map switching based on sensor input.

Built correctly, you can design a meth injected engine in such a way that the moment a fault is detected, your "hot" map switches over to your "limp mode" map. Since EMS can adjust ignition and boost, you basically create a map that backs everything off, and saves you before things go south. For me, with the higher static CR, it would be perfectly reasonable to remap the motor to open the wastegates 100% in fail mode and drive the car NA in an emergency.

So, has anyone actually made headway in adding meth/water injection to their cars yet?
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:47 AM
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i've run meth injection on my turbocharged mustang for a few years now. It is by far the best and safest way to increase power on any forced induction engine, p-cars included. Creating fale safes are actually quite easy and the SAFE power you can extract from an engine on meth is astounding. My newly converted EFI'd 930 will have a meth kit but i've never seen any need for progressive style kits on mildly boosted turbo cars. Supercharged engines are quite different as boost typically builds with rpm, but a turbo engine pretty mush sees full boost moments after initial spool up. The kit I ran on my stang was a very basic set-up that lived by the "KISS" method. The set-up i will use on my 930 will be controlled my megasquirt and at the first sign of problems (raised IAT) it will lower boost to 10psi. Since I don't plan on running aggressive timing curves i won't have that to worry about.

I've yet to run into a meth user
Old 10-14-2009, 10:53 AM
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I am running a progressive water/methanol injection system on mine from Coolingmist and am very happy with it. Very easy to setup and install. I have had very consistent AFR's with it; actually better than idle or low load. I have this in series with an intercooler as I am running 9.5:1 pistons.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:08 AM
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sjf911, tell us more about you system. brand and location of nozzles? Any pics? How big is your tank?
thanks,
Ben
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjf911 View Post
I am running 9.5:1 pistons.
NOW we're talking! I have 9.5:1 JE pistons I was going to cut down to soften the CR, but if you are running this CR successfully, some questions; what is your:

Peak boost?
Piston diameter? Saw this in your sig, 98mm
Crank stroke? 70.4mm
Cam spec?

Twin Plugs? Yep
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- 1965 911
- 1969 911S
- 1980 911SC Targa
- 1979 930

Last edited by kenikh; 10-14-2009 at 11:39 AM..
Old 10-14-2009, 11:35 AM
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I have 98mm QCS cylinders from Henry at Supertec with JE 9.5:1 pistons and a stock 3.0 bottom end. I am using 3.2 heads and intake with 964 cams. My methanol injection is the Coolingmist Vari-Cool II with a 1.5 gallon tank in the trunk and a flow sensor. The injector is mounted in between the intercooler and throttle body but significantly closer to the intercooler. The flow controller is mounted in the center console below the AC controls. I am currently running a 0.6 bar spring in my Tial WG but am planning on dropping back to a 0.5 bar spring with a manual boost conroller (Hallman Pro RX). My ambient pressure is 0.92 bar here in the mountains so my real boost peaks at about 1.48 bar.

Coolingmist Water Injection, alcohol injection and Methanol Injection systems
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Last edited by sjf911; 10-14-2009 at 01:21 PM..
Old 10-14-2009, 01:13 PM
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Music to my ears...if you have a dyno sheet, you must share! I assume there is no knock control on your motor? I was planning on using a J&S knock box with the sensor mounted to 993 knock sensor bridges - this is a pretty simple retrofit.

If you could share your MSII maps, that would be very interesting to contextualize the gains.

I was shying away from using MSII until you chimed in, so thanks so much for contributing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjf911 View Post
I have 98mm QCS cylinders from Henry at Supertec with JE 9.5:1 pistons and a stock 3.0 bottom end. I am using 3.2 heads and intake with 964 cams. My methanol injection is the Coolingmist Vari-Cool II with a 1.5 gallon tank in the trunk and a flow sensor. The injector is mounted in between the intercooler and throttle body but significantly closer to the intercooler. The flow controller is mounted in the center console below the AC controls. I am currently running a 0.6 bar spring in my Tial WG but am planning on droppinb back to a 0.5 bar spring with a manual boost conroller (Hallman Pro RX). My ambient pressure is 0.92 bar here in the mountains so my real boost peaks at about 1.48 bar.

Coolingmist Water Injection, alcohol injection and Methanol Injection systems
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- 1979 930
Old 10-14-2009, 01:21 PM
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I have a knock sensor and controller installed from KnockSenseMS but I have found that it is not effective due to engine noise. I would definitely consider the J&S system though. So far, I have not had any knock issues that I can identify and I have regularly inspected my sparkplugs. However, I did start off with a super rich tune and worked backward from there with AFR's of 11.0 now at peak boost with the methanol. I can certainly say that you loose a lot of power with AFR's <10. I don't see much increase in charge air temperature with this setup.
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:42 PM
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There is a thread on the turbo forum regarding J&S on 930 applications and sounds like the noise gremlins have been solved with this system. At ~$500, it isn't ungodly expensive, either.

I have not heard good things about MSII's native knock sensing. It is just too hard to tune.

Good idea to start fat and work back - beats melted goodies!
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:45 PM
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Here are some pictures of my Coolingmist Vari-Cool II install:

Injector rear view:


Injector side view:


Controller in center console:



Tank and pump in trunk:


Flow meter:
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:35 AM
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Great pics!

Is your CollingMist system communicating with MS-II via an aux port for failsafe?

Are you using 50/50 or 100% methanol? 50/50 is much cheaper and easier to find, but 100% is apparently the real ticket for power and cooling. I am seriously considering 100% meth since every dyno sheet I read on 100% meth crushes 50/50.

I have read of a few folks that actually run separate injection system for a water fogger high up in the intake tract and another for methanol injectors that sit above each port. Sounds complex, but I'd bet it works great.
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Old 10-15-2009, 06:58 AM
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Stick yourself a No2 bottle in place of the H2O and you will really cool if off. Just don't get carried away with leaving it on and watch a good pyrometer for exhaust temps and you will have a rocket.
Old 10-15-2009, 07:24 AM
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I am running the typical 50:50 windshield fluid for injection. The Vari-cool is its own controller with a built-in map sensor to control the injection volume by varying PWM to cycle the pump. It gives you a linear flow curve that you can vary by adjusting onset and peak boost pressure thresholds. There is a vacuum line that tees off of the boost gauge to the Vari-cool controller. It does not communicate with the MS-II. The digital readout on the controller is actually your boost level. There is an analog "bar" above the digital face for monitoring injection flow volume.
I have contemplated going the route of mixing 60:40 meth to water by weight but as a chemist, I have a very healthly respect for pure methanol and prefer the simpler and safer route of a water diluted mix.
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Last edited by sjf911; 10-15-2009 at 09:48 AM..
Old 10-15-2009, 07:43 AM
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I do worry about the volatility of pure methanol and the availability of blue washer fluid on road trips is compelling. Getting the juice in a pinch when you aren't near home to access a 50 gallon drum of methanol is my most major concern, as I do a 2000 mile trip every year in my 911s.

You CAN use ethanol in lieu of methanol with the same maps and can buy it in gallon jugs at Home Depot in a pinch, but at $20/gallon, that is not the most economical route. Knowing that with your engine spec that you are successfully running 50/50 is great news. The engine on the stand in my garage right now is a 2.3L turbo that is basically identical to your setup with the exception that it has custom lobe center GT2 cams and a smaller turbo. Same CR, twin plugs, etc.

I will be PMing you one day in the future in hopes of getting your MSII maps to use as a tuning baseline. I figure that a 3.2SS fully dialed in will be perfect as a fat starting point that I can also dial back to perfect AFRs.

Your input has been valuable beyond words and is greatly appreciated. I thought that I was on the Wild West frontier on my build; it is nice to find someone has already blazed a trail.
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Old 10-15-2009, 08:45 AM
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i do like those flow sensors..

once you go straight meth you'll never go back - i started out with a mixture of water and rubbing alcohol from CVS, then got tired of mixing and bought a gallon jug of -20* washer fluid (non-detergent). All seemed to work well except for the slight bog when it activated. Then I tried straight methanol, no more bog. Even going to a larger nozzle, and then 2 nozzles, I never felt any bog when it activated. and it was quite amazing how much farther I could push the power up once I went with straight meth. I know water cooled engines differ from our air cooled monsters but the cooling effect/octane boost of methanol just can't be denied.
Old 10-15-2009, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
i do like those flow sensors..

once you go straight meth you'll never go back - i started out with a mixture of water and rubbing alcohol from CVS, then got tired of mixing and bought a gallon jug of -20* washer fluid (non-detergent). All seemed to work well except for the slight bog when it activated. Then I tried straight methanol, no more bog. Even going to a larger nozzle, and then 2 nozzles, I never felt any bog when it activated. and it was quite amazing how much farther I could push the power up once I went with straight meth. I know water cooled engines differ from our air cooled monsters but the cooling effect/octane boost of methanol just can't be denied.
I think this is the advantage of the variable injection. It starts off at a very low volume and rises linearly at a preset slope. Mine activates at 0.5lbs of boost so you never notice an effect.
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Old 10-15-2009, 09:42 AM
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I do like your set-up. In fact i'm looking into having my megasquirt trigger the meth system
Old 10-15-2009, 10:23 AM
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Great set-up sjf911, I was toying with the idea of either intercooling or using water/meth injection for my Supercharge application. It's funny this thread came along, since someone from the 930 cround suggested to me using this system a while back.

Since I have limited space under my hood, due to my Paxton taking almost half, putting an intercooler would be a hell of a job, it will probably be more costly as well,... intercooler ain't chaep.

Are these kits pretty easy to install, for a moderate DIY kind of person???

Obviously tuning would be a chalenge, but I could always swing by TPC and have them doing the final touch.

Anyone has done this on supercharge 3.2 before, from what I gather the 3.2 intake is a more direct flow path than the 930, so this should be a great application,.. right?

Stephan
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:48 AM
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