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one of the great unwashed
 
patkeefe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ringwood, NJ
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I run water injection on the turbo SC. I inject between the compressor outlet and the TB, via what is essentially an oil burner nozzle (Delavan 80 deg hollow core pattern, between 1 GPM and 2.5 GPM nozzles). I can mix the water with alcohol or methanol, but that stuff is expensive, and well, water is basically free. The water injection is my intercooler, plus it's a really effective anti-detonant.
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Patrick E. Keefe
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Old 10-19-2009, 10:58 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #61 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
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Speaking of injector type and location, this article is the best I have found:

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a40/Where-Do-I-Position-My-Water-Injection-Nozzles/article_info.html

I am thinking of running one pre-turbo and then one in each runner.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:07 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #62 (permalink)
one of the great unwashed
 
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BTW, my system is from
BlowerWorks:::
Greg calls it Gaseous Intercooling on his website. It works quite well.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #63 (permalink)
3 restos WIP = psycho
 
kenikh's Avatar
 
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Here's another product for you west coasters that may want to spike your washer fluid cheaply:

While we find your parts, please enter your ZIP Code at CSK Auto



Available at Schuck's/Kragen/O'Reilly at $4.59 for a half gallon of 80% methanol, 20% water. MSDS:

http://www.unelko.com/msds/GlassScienceUltraCleanConcentrateMSDS.pdf
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- 1965 911
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- 1979 930
Old 10-20-2009, 08:31 AM
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I can see there is alot of enthusiasm for using store bought washer fluid however you should be certain the water content is distilled or you will be loading your combustion chambers with alot of stuff you do not want.

Years ago I rebuilt an engine that used one the the simple vacuum draw through "water injection" systems. The heads, valves and exhaust looked like they were porcelain coated and it was flaking off in large sections. It was obvious they had been using tap water. I'd also worry about detergents and dyes.

If you are serious about this you can still buy 5 gallon cans of methanol from chemical supply houses and the distilled water can be had for $1.00 a gallon. Mix your own and know what you are putting in your engine.
Old 10-20-2009, 09:20 AM
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After a solid year of straight meth my engine had zero deposits, quite clean actually.

Thats why i don't use water, or mixtures for that matter. Just straight meth and hang on
Old 10-20-2009, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmatera View Post
After a solid year of straight meth my engine had zero deposits, quite clean actually.

Thats why i don't use water, or mixtures for that matter. Just straight meth and hang on
That's the ideal, just not ideal on a 2000 mile road trip.
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:25 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #67 (permalink)
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A friend of mine years ago would bike around the country over the summer. He had PO boxes secured along his route filled with bike parts and clothing that he mailed there before his trek. At each of those check points he would pick up the clean clothes and inner tubes then mail back dirty clothes. Was able to travel light and still have essentials.
Old 10-20-2009, 09:45 AM
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Pre-compressor injection

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
Speaking of injector type and location, this article is the best I have found:

Where Do I Position My Water Injection Nozzles

I am thinking of running one pre-turbo and then one in each runner.
This discussion of pre-compressor injection was emailed to us by a member on here asking about it. For years everyone has been running nozzle just before the throttle body. While this works fine. A few years ago we found there were more gains to be had by also running water methanol through the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger in combination with nozzle(s) before the throttle body.

A great article to read on this which goes into more detail is

Positioning The Water Injection Nozzle


I great recent example of this that was recently in the magazine was this Corvette which recently broke the record becoming the fastest pump gas C6 Z06 that went 8.80's over 150 MPH.

Here's the link to the article.

AIS water/meth kit in the world's fastest C6 ZO6








Old 10-20-2009, 10:58 AM
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one of the great unwashed
 
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Aren't those the same article, regarding injection location? Well written, by the way.

If I may inquire, how did you quantify the benefit of squirting liquid droplets onto a spinning piece of turbomachinery? Intuitively, it seems what would happen is the liquid would be slung radially off the rotating wheel, and evaporate as it travels up the blades, else produce reduced benefit from evaporation at such low ambient injection temperatures. Unless, of course, it is part of a two stage system, and the initial pre-compressor injection variables are all controlled very precisely.

I considered injection pre-compressor on mine, but decided against the idea because of the relatively low boost I run. I also had trepidation regarding killing the compressor wheel.

Thanks!
Pat
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:43 AM
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The nozzle atomizes the water/methanol mixture so that no actual water droplets hit the compressor wheel. That would be bad...

Mark
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:23 AM
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Between putting the nozzle far upstream and the heat the turbo puts out, water will never touch the turbo.
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- 1969 911S
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- 1979 930
Old 10-21-2009, 06:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #72 (permalink)
one of the great unwashed
 
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I looked at the photos in the link. The injection nozzle is about two inches from the compressor wheel. I realize the atomization process distributes a very fine mist of water droplets, they are small but have a finite mass. Maybe this is much ado about nothing regarding hitting the wheel with water.

We can get to certain condition where the air mixture becomes saturated on its way into the cylinders. I did a calculation on this once, but have no idea where the calcs are now. In my case, at 5.8 PSI boost, I only see a temperature rise of maybe 80F from ambient entering the airbox to temperature in the distribution plenum to the cylinders, and this condition only exists at the track. I believe higher boost pressures will result in a much greater temperature rise across the compressor. The point is, you can get a case where you squirt in too much water, and reach saturation.

I am glad to see this discussion, as I have felt I am one of the few people who willingly squirts water into his Porsche engine. If this is done correctly, you really don't need an airside intercooler.

Pat
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:52 AM
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Hi:

I have been reading and learning from all of you for more than 10 years. My car is a 1985 Carrera cabriolet and converted to turbo 7 years ago with a Protomotive on the side kit (J-pipe), intercooled at 0.7 Bar with no issues, until now. It recently started to smoke on deceleration badly, so I am in the process of buying parts for the dissasembly (to correct oil leaks also) and rebuild the heads (valve guides).
So here is the "while you are in there" plan:
1) Change bearings
2) Put GT2 Evo camshafts (if they can be used in the 3.2)
3) Lower the compression a bit by means of cylinder base gaskets and turbo head gaskets (like the Protomotive Stage 2).
4) Eliminate the intercooler and run water/methanol injection because I need the AC back. Here in Puerto Rico is very hot and rainy.
5) Put a high flow fuel pump.
6) Change from Dilavar to steel.

So the question is: If I lower the compression to about 8.8:1 and run water/methanol, no intercooler, can I run about 0.8 Bar for very short runs? I don't track the car and it sees full boost for very short periods (seconds). Do I need to remap the chip?

Thanks in advance for your attention, and here is the obligatory photo.
Francisco Soto
Old 10-22-2009, 03:36 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #74 (permalink)
OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
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Francisco,

What intercooler are you using? A full bay? If not. then why not use the half bay intercooler and spray with the stock condensor on the right side?
Old 10-22-2009, 08:32 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #75 (permalink)
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Hi:

It is a full bay custom made intercooler. I was able to fit a very large condensor on top of the intercooler but I would like to put one fan to lower the compressor pressures. It was blowing cold but the system has a leak, so thats another story.

Right now I am running 0.5 Bar with no intercooler. I have a 930 intercooler but it seems difficult to to adapt because of the design of the outlet.

Francisco
Old 10-22-2009, 12:47 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #76 (permalink)
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