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Twins are more fun!
 
JMA-RUF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Angry Too much squat!!!

Damn, I need stiffer torsion bars! My car squats so damn hard under load!

What size torsions should I fit on the rear to stiffen her up?

I believe they are just stock Carrera torsion bars

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James
Carrera TT

(3.3, Protomotive MAP ECU, EFI, GT2 EVO CAMs, Twin Plugged, Twin Turbo's)
Old 02-13-2009, 03:38 PM
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Me like track days
 
Craig 930 RS's Avatar
 
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It's a chronic problem with 930s -

You might think of 22/ 30 or 31 F&R for a Carrera.
Totally depends on what your goals are - track use/tolerance for stiff ride, etc.
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-13-2009, 03:42 PM
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I've talking to Hayden @ Wevo about 930 squat problem. Since mine is a street car that will occasionally see track use I don't want to stiffen it up too much. I also want to stick with the torsion bars. I'm going to try the Wevo/Ohlins adjustable shocks with a helper spring. The spring rate would be based on the torsion bar. I have the shocks but haven't set them up yet. (I'm dealing with a hot start issue that's drivng nuts)
My long term goal is to retain the torsion bars, though I may change the size. Have my RSR Bilstein front struts converted to a adjustable Koni wet shock and run helper/tender springs front & back. You could stiffen the shock and tighten the springs at the track, then soften it up for the street.
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'79 930/DP935
'68 VW 3.3 Turbo Crewcab
Old 02-13-2009, 04:12 PM
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Twins are more fun!
 
JMA-RUF's Avatar
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig 930 RS View Post
It's a chronic problem with 930s -

You might think of 22/ 30 or 31 F&R for a Carrera.
Totally depends on what your goals are - track use/tolerance for stiff ride, etc.
Car is purely street, but the squat really annoys me. The front end gets very light under hard acceleration, it's scarey

Might go with the 30mm at the rear. I think I'll go with Sanders Engineering hollow bars too.
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James
Carrera TT

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Old 02-13-2009, 04:16 PM
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Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
DonE's Avatar
 
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I put 100lb coil over springs on the rear shocks. The torsion bars are 29mm and when I get on full throttle, the rear sits slightly and off it goes. I can stiffen the springs by adjusting them tighter for the track (no squat) or turn them down for a road trip (much easier on the kidneys). Works great for me.
Old 02-13-2009, 05:51 PM
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Twins are more fun!
 
JMA-RUF's Avatar
 
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Nice, DonE!

Man, I wish I could go with a coil over setup... I'll just have to settle for stiffer torsions for now.

Are torsions easy to remove and replace?
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Carrera TT

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Last edited by JMA-RUF; 02-13-2009 at 06:03 PM..
Old 02-13-2009, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonE View Post
I put 100lb coil over springs on the rear shocks. The torsion bars are 29mm and when I get on full throttle, the rear sits slightly and off it goes. I can stiffen the springs by adjusting them tighter for the track (no squat) or turn them down for a road trip (much easier on the kidneys). Works great for me.
+1

Call Clint at Rebel racing http://www.rebelracingproducts.com/index.html and he'll hook u up with a rear coilover kit.

Great all around guy, knows these suspensions inside out, and reasonable prices.

If you are running more or less stock rear bars, you may want to go to 200lb springs.... squat becomes next to nil and improves handling immensely too. Ask me how i know
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
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Old 02-13-2009, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMA-RUF View Post
Car is purely street, but the squat really annoys me. The front end gets very light under hard acceleration, it's scarey

Might go with the 30mm at the rear. I think I'll go with Sanders Engineering hollow bars too.
The difference between the turbo and carrera is that the turbo has anti squat characteristics built into the suspension. I believe it is the trailing arms and rear suspension track which is not only wider but re-designed to prevent squat.

Of course the turbo still squats like crazy.
Old 02-14-2009, 05:50 AM
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Wo ist die Rennstrecke?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMA-RUF View Post
Nice, DonE!

Man, I wish I could go with a coil over setup... I'll just have to settle for stiffer torsions for now.

Are torsions easy to remove and replace?
They are a direct bolt on and nothing else is needed - direct replacement for stock shocks.
Old 02-14-2009, 08:56 AM
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Me like track days
 
Craig 930 RS's Avatar
 
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Made a huge difference on my car -

23/33 torsions with 200lb helper coilovers, excelllent handling car on track..... and squat......what squat?
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"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-14-2009, 09:02 AM
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This brings up a really good question for me...is it perhaps a reasonable move to leave the stock t bars in place and simply augment them with coilover rear shocks and coil over add ons for the front struts?

In the past I have gone the route of new t bars, and that ended up including bushings, etc. since I was in there already. Then, all 4 wheels needed alignment. So it added up to several hundred dollars and lots of time.

It seems from the rebel racing link that the front and rear coilovers could be installed without disturbing the alignment and the cost is in the general range.

Added benefit of tuning capability and selectable for street / track.

What do you all think?
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1988 930 coupe - Silver Metallic
3.3L w/GT35R, B&B Headers, RarlyL8 muffler, TurboKraft IC, Tial WG, tecGT based phased sequential EFI & ignition, Wevo shifter/coupler, ...
Old 02-14-2009, 02:13 PM
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OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
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Fronts are easy. Rears can be a challenge if never done before. I'd be tempted to install the Rebel Racing coil overs with your stock t-bars to start with.

Quote:
Are torsions easy to remove and replace?
Old 02-14-2009, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonE View Post
They are a direct bolt on and nothing else is needed - direct replacement for stock shocks.
The rears are ridiculously easy. Just unbolt the rear shocks, send them too your machine shop of choice to make a groove in the shock housing for the circlip which supports the threaded coilover collar, put the collar and spring on, reinstall and set ride height. Piece of cake. did it in one afternoon.



The fronts are pretty easy too, just takes more time to unbolt all the front suspension stuff. I havent done the fronts yet, as i am going to intstall them when i redo a lot of other stuff simultaneously.
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 02-15-2009, 07:25 AM
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Justin, did you reinforce the shock housing/mounting socket before installing the coilovers?
Old 02-15-2009, 03:52 PM
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Miguel, i read about the concerns some had on this, and spoke with Clint of Rebel Racing, and decided did need to at this time. Basically, Clint and a lot of others feel that if you are keeping the stock T bars and not going gonzo spring rates, unreinforced shock towers are fine. Clint not only builds some amazing susp pieces for these cars (Full 935 spring plates and front susp, etc) but runs a shop, meaning he has real world experience. He has not seen any evidence of severe tower fatigue, even on track cars.

Good discussion here
Rebel Racing Rear Coilover Installation
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'79 930/934 replica
80 RSR-look(Now in Sicily)
914/6 2.7 (Projekt 908/3)
1965 Karman Ghia-Class winner 2007 Carrera Panamericana/Ducati 900ss/GhezziBrian STW
D-Zug Produkte/D-Zug.com
Old 02-15-2009, 06:09 PM
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My bad, I assumed you got rid of the TBs when you mentioned adjust ride height...

In combination with the TBs is definitely OK w/o reinforcing.

Need to plan the next "run" with the real machines...
Old 02-16-2009, 03:07 AM
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Here's my car with 22/31 bars just pulling out of the pits! If/when I go stiffer, I'll put 23's in front and add rear coils.

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Old 02-16-2009, 10:39 AM
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Some hard pulling there!!! How many horses?

Perfect, just perfect... some squatting on the rear, both front on the ground at 0* and the rear wheel just under the fender well... IMO, the best use of the suspension geometry.

BTW, pretty machine.
Old 02-16-2009, 10:51 AM
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Me like track days
 
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23/33 and 200 lb rear coils - good stuff for track use
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- Craig 3.4L, SC heads, 964 cams, B&B headers, K27 HF ZC turbo, Ruf IC. WUR & RPM switch, IA fuel head, Zork, G50/50 5 speed. 438 RWHP / 413 RWTQ -
"930 is the wild slut you sleep with who tries to kill you every time you "get it on" - Quote by Gabe
Movie: 930 on the dyno
Old 02-16-2009, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonE View Post
I put 100lb coil over springs on the rear shocks. The torsion bars are 29mm and when I get on full throttle, the rear sits slightly and off it goes. I can stiffen the springs by adjusting them tighter for the track (no squat) or turn them down for a road trip (much easier on the kidneys). Works great for me.
Don,

How do you do this without affecting ride height? If the coil springs are always carrying some of load (street and track), then how does it get stiffer when you dial in more coil spring? Or do you back it off on the street so that no load is carried by the coils?

I have 31 mm rear T-bars and have just installed 250 lb helpers from Rebel racing. I have yet to figure out how much "preload" to give the coils. If I give it any preload at all, it will raise the ride height and affect corner balance which I don't want to do. So I'm planning to re-index the T-bars and lower the car about 1/2 inch or so, and then bring it back up to target height with the coils. Doing this will allow me to corner balance and make very small ride height adjustments easily with the coils. But I don't see how I can voluntarily change the stiffness at the rear for street and track unless I completely disengage the coils from having any contact with the perches, which doesn't sound like a good thing to do.

Rob


Last edited by Rob 930; 02-16-2009 at 12:37 PM..
Old 02-16-2009, 12:35 PM
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