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Twins are more fun!
 
JMA-RUF's Avatar
 
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K16/24 vs K16/16G vs K24/18G Flow Rates

Just thought I'd share these specs. A friend of mine just got these specs from a highly reputable tuner who's done all of these hybrid conversions:

Tuner's comments:

"K16/24 flow rate = approx. 27 lbs/min
k16/16g flow rate= approx. 35 lbs/min
k24/18g flow rate= approx. 40 lbs/min

for a street/mild DE car....the K16/16g are GREAT.....quick spool,good low/mid range pwr/tq"


Seems to be around right as I've heard many times that the K16/24's max out at around the 525-550 crank HP region.
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(3.3, Protomotive MAP ECU, EFI, GT2 EVO CAMs, Twin Plugged, Twin Turbo's)

Last edited by JMA-RUF; 02-16-2009 at 01:21 PM..
Old 02-16-2009, 01:14 PM
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James,

I just got off the phone with Seth St Dennis from Moon Performance. He's really good friends with Tony down @ EPL. Apparently Tony uses the K16/16G hybrids as his bassis for the 500+ hp kits he offers for the 996turbo, and typically keeps a few pairs in stock on the shelves.

I'd give Tony a call down at EPL and let him know Seth and Adam referred you there. Should be able to work with you and let you know what he's got and pricing as well.

Good luck with the build, should be a fun venture no doubt!!
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Adam Hennessy
Old 02-16-2009, 06:10 PM
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Thanks Adam... BTW, one of my friends has been in contact with Tony about his 16G hybrids... he told me Tony charges 450 more than what other tuners have quoted him

Not sure what the difference is to be honest, but these other tuners are very big, very well known and respected in Porsche tuning circles, so their hybrids must be of a high standard too

I will contact Blouch when I'm ready for mine tho.
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James
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMA-RUF View Post
Thanks Adam... BTW, one of my friends has been in contact with Tony about his 16G hybrids... he told me Tony charges 450 more than what other tuners have quoted him

Not sure what the difference is to be honest, but these other tuners are very big, very well known and respected in Porsche tuning circles, so their hybrids must be of a high standard too

I will contact Blouch when I'm ready for mine tho.

Interesting. Not sure what the extra cost is revolving around to be honest, but know he sell a TON of kits every month so business for him has been really good.

Tony is Blouch's second largest account though I know that. Blouch is good Some of their hybrids are a crazy looking mash of machined and welded components, but damn do they work good!
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:39 PM
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My mate just told me Tony's price included high pressure wastegates for the $450 extra, but what's the point if you have an EBC to regulate boost?

I'd rather use that $450 on the exhaust system build. It'd pay for the two bullet mufflers and tips.
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James
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:50 PM
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HP wastegates use stiffer springs to keep the exhaust manifold pressure from blowing the gates open prematurely. EBC is used to control the boost pressure onset and upper level, but is only as good as the gates' ability to stay closed under it's own spring pressure. If the gates blow open prematurely to what you have set, you're loosing potential drivability due to increased spool time.

Modern EBC's usually have a "spring pressure" setting that the EBC programming takes into account and uses to factor in how it controls the EBS(boost solenoid). It'll hold off opening the solenoid to the wastegate diaphram(s) as per a determined setting to maximize spool characteristics(and low end torque). However if you set this as 15 psi and the gates start to blow open at 10 because the force of the exhaust pressure against the flapper valve is greater than the spring pressure, you bypass exhaust prematurely that could be used to spool the turbos quicker.

Remember, most internal wastegate actuators only have a boost opening reference, unlike external units that have an opening and blow closed reference to boost pressure, so their only closing force is the spring pressure itself. There ARE dual reference internal wastegate actuators available, but only for certain makes as a bolt on application. By the time you purchased them and adapted them to the hybrids, you be close or at the $450 marks anyway.

Didn't realize Tony offered that as standard equip. I know most of his kits are 996 turbo based though. I guess it depends on how you plan to run this beast and what the stock gate setting is going to be. If they're set at say .8bar and you're only planning on running 1 bar, it may be best to save the $450. However if you're planning on running like 1.5 bar then the $450 spent will come in handy.

It is a crap shoot I know, choosing what options to add into the shopping cart


good luck!
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Adam Hennessy
Old 02-16-2009, 07:09 PM
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Interesting. Thanks for your input

The OEM 993tt gates are preset to 0.7bar. I plan to regulate boost to ~1.25bar with these 16G babies

Perhaps investing in HP gates would be a wise move then
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMA-RUF View Post
Interesting. Thanks for your input

The OEM 993tt gates are preset to 0.7bar. I plan to regulate boost to ~1.25bar with these 16G babies

Perhaps investing in HP gates would be a wise move then
If it was my car running that much boost I would invest in the HP gates. I'm not saying that because Tony is a friend either, but just because of the basics it's revolving around. It's an ~8lb increase in pressure over the springs pressure. You'd probably be right on the margin if nothing else, but you'll only know by testing.

However.............,

If you call and talk to Tony, let him know who sent you(Seth St. Dennis and Adam Hennessy from Moon), and just ask him if you can purchase them w/o the HP option he might work with you. Later down the road if you find you need them, you could call Tony back up and just buy the actuators and swap them in. That way you still have the money for your exhaust now, where you need it

Right now I've slated an HTA GT3582R twinscroll on my kit car motor(3.3L). I'm contemplating on swapping over to a biturbo GT2871R setup in the future to get more power without too much more lag. If/when I do, I'll be running 18psi wastegate springs versus the stock 11psi units Garrett offers. Just a reference.
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:34 PM
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No harm in asking I guess. I can always upgrade to HP gates later on as you suggested. Right now, I just want to get it all on the car and enjoy it... can't do THAT without an exhaust

Heck, I'm tempted to just run around with the OEM K16's just to see what they're like with a free-flowing exhaust
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMA-RUF View Post
Heck, I'm tempted to just run around with the OEM K16's just to see what they're like with a free-flowing exhaust
Yes, just turndowns off the turbines!

You'd swear the exhaust on Chris's Ruf RTurbo here is like that. Sounds amazing under power, even though he still pussy-foots it around
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:46 PM
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Ive used a zork before and that sounded nasty. Imagine tt's!!!
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Old 02-16-2009, 08:17 PM
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Stock 993tt actuators are set to open 4mm at 0.5bar
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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:11 AM
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Yeah, OEM gates are set to 0.5bar, but I can regulate boost with my EBC. They'll be a little lazy compared to newer higher pressure gates, but for now they'll be fine.
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Old 02-17-2009, 02:56 PM
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You can adjust the preload on the actuators to whatever you want, i was just just saying that with a stock 993tt the actuators are set to open 4mm at 0.5bar. This is what the motronic ECU needs for correct control over the wastegates, you can add a little more preload and keep the wastegates closed for longer.
What ECU are you going to use for your engine?

Some good reading on wastegate settings with Motronic, Kevin from UMW explains quite a bit http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=144577&referrerid=40678
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Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 02-17-2009, 11:57 PM
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I'm running a Protomotive Motronic ECU.
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Old 02-18-2009, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMA-RUF View Post
I'm running a Protomotive Motronic ECU.
Will you have the Motronic controlling boost or are you going to run fixed boost?
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Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 02-18-2009, 02:16 AM
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EBC to regulate boost. The Motronic auto adjusts all mixtures/timing etc, up to 1.4bar.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:18 AM
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