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Twins are more fun!
 
JMA-RUF's Avatar
 
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Calling PurpleHaze!

Glenn, can you post some pics of your Dynomax X-Flow exhaust setup on your twin turbo setup?

I like the idea of the two turbos dumping into the one, big single muffler.

How do you find the sound, and of course, the performance?

Have you dyno'd your setup?
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James
Carrera TT

(3.3, Protomotive MAP ECU, EFI, GT2 EVO CAMs, Twin Plugged, Twin Turbo's)
Old 02-23-2009, 10:21 PM
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Here you go, James.








I added an oil return line for the oil cooling. My turbos are located just above the valve covers so that I can take advantage of a gravity return. Works fine. I've since gone to a completely separate coolant-based cooling system, but still use oil to lube.







I'm fortunate to have a great, local guy, John at 666 Fabrication here in Milford, CT. He's very experienced with headers, turbos, and his TIG work is artistry. I brought him the car and muffler, and he made up the ss exhaust and WG piping. Totally unpretentious guy, who is serious about his craft.

The sound is much quieter than Todd's ss x-flow design muffler (like zero baffles) but not too quiet. I don't have anything against which to compare, except the prior muffler. I do still have one of Todd's ss mufflers.

When I changed the turbos from super 60's to these GT3071r's I also changed the muffler. I learned a lot about indexing turbos, and aligning the oil ports. I can't speak to any perf gain just from the muffler alone.

Yes, I've dyno'd it.

I've also since removed (and will be selling) the entire Protomotive system, wiring harness, pressure sensor-modified Motronic EFI, sensors, fuel injection.

I replaced it with a Haltech E11v2, wiring harness, different sensors, Marren fuel rails, larger injectors, AN fuel lines, FPR, etc. I've got it dialed only for a bar now and am awaiting larger WG springs. It never ends. Kris (930GT-40R) helped a LOT with the swap, and especially the wiring.

The Proto stuff always worked flawlessly, cannot complain there, but I tend to change things frequently and wanted to be able to self-tune with greater ease. I do all my own work, so this just fit better.

I think the x-flow is an ok solution. I forget the cfm # but it's not bad. Next time, I'll go with less restrictive dual bullet style mufflers, and see how that helps the HP and TQ. For the $ it's an excellent choice though!

Hope that helps.

How is your kit coming along? Do you have a good local fabricator you trust, or is that you?

G
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Glenn
87' 930TT
Old 02-24-2009, 12:40 PM
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what kind of headers are you running?? they look like equal length??
i bet your putting down some big #s if you felt the need to have twin gt3071s..

Old 02-24-2009, 01:00 PM
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Twins are more fun!
 
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Awesome setup there Glenn! I love it!

Here are the flow specs of the Dynomax X-Flow Muffler. Not too bad and would suit my application perfectly as I'm aiming for mid 500's with my K16/16G hybrids

Are you using 3" in/outs or the larger 3.5" in/out muffler?

I'm thinking of using those Flex Belows at the turbo end, to allow for a bit of flex under heavy load.

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James
Carrera TT

(3.3, Protomotive MAP ECU, EFI, GT2 EVO CAMs, Twin Plugged, Twin Turbo's)
Old 02-24-2009, 01:53 PM
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Thanks guys!

Yes, they're equal length headers. It gets out of its own way.

I bought those ss flex joints to abosrb any flex in the system and prevent cracks. They've been remarkably effective. They also allow just a bit of flex in lining up the V-bands when you take it apart.



I went with the 3" muffler. If you notice, after the muffler it tapers down to a 2.5" to form a smaller chamber, then right back up. Todd suggested this and it was corroborated by a couple other folks. For the life of me now, I haven't the foggiest idea why......... Memory, it's a tough thing to lose!
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Glenn
87' 930TT
Old 02-24-2009, 02:27 PM
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Twins are more fun!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehaze View Post
If you notice, after the muffler it tapers down to a 2.5" to form a smaller chamber, then right back up. Todd suggested this and it was corroborated by a couple other folks. For the life of me now, I haven't the foggiest idea why......... Memory, it's a tough thing to lose!
A bit of noise reduction perhaps?

How loud is the system at WOT? What about just cruising around on the street?

I'm also looking at using V-Band interfaces to make it more modular and easy to R&R.

Even the 2 1/2" X-Flow muffler above in that table would flow enough for my requirements (~590 HP) and would probably be a little quieter than the 3" unit?

Glenn, why did you opt to use the top ports as the exits, instead of the inlets? I would have thought the top ports would have been better to mate to the turbo's and the bottom ports just have 90 degree elbows as exits/tips?
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James
Carrera TT

(3.3, Protomotive MAP ECU, EFI, GT2 EVO CAMs, Twin Plugged, Twin Turbo's)

Last edited by JMA-RUF; 02-24-2009 at 02:40 PM..
Old 02-24-2009, 02:37 PM
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Glen, great build, to save me searching (i'm a lazy bastard) give us some stats
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Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 02-24-2009, 03:06 PM
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OFF THE BOOST PIPE NOW...
 
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Venturi effect I'm guessing. And I'm really guessing!


Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehaze View Post



I went with the 3" muffler. If you notice, after the muffler it tapers down to a 2.5" to form a smaller chamber, then right back up. Todd suggested this and it was corroborated by a couple other folks. For the life of me now, I haven't the foggiest idea why......... Memory, it's a tough thing to lose!
Old 02-24-2009, 03:44 PM
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Twins are more fun!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A930Rocket View Post
Venturi effect I'm guessing. And I'm really guessing!
Venturi effect? Now you're getting into too much Physics for my liking

If I go down this route, it'll be 3" mandrel pipes all the way, with some short flex bellows at the turbo end to account for vibration/flex under load.
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James
Carrera TT

(3.3, Protomotive MAP ECU, EFI, GT2 EVO CAMs, Twin Plugged, Twin Turbo's)
Old 02-24-2009, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMA-RUF View Post
.... why did you opt to use the top ports as the exits, instead of the inlets? ......
The rear bumper shocks/mounts interfere. You could yank them completely out but I wanted a bit of rear protection.

Here's the link for some affordable flex joints:

http://sportcompactwarehouse.com/vibrant/vibrant-exhaust-fabrication-flex-couplings/46544/i-36874.aspx

I can't find the link for the V-bands, but Summit sells them pretty cheap as well.

WOT is loud. Not getting around it. I'll try to find a video with track time. It's a toss up, it's hard to get 5-600+ HP without waking the neighbors once in a while. You want subtle power, get an AMG.

Good point about the 2.5" reduction, it could be for noise. I thought back pressure, but there goes that memory again.....
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Glenn
87' 930TT
Old 02-24-2009, 04:05 PM
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Oh yeah, some build specs -

I really ought to write this whole thing down somewhere....

3.3 case, shuffle pinned
stock Mahle 3.3 pistons and cylinders, then flame ringed
twin plugged 3.3 heads, ported to 3.2 spec (intake port to 41mm, exh to 3.2 size), welded/expanded intake port to match up to intake, all new manganese bronze guides, new valves, aluminum flame rings, cylinders machined flat
EBS race valve springs
titanium retainers
GT2 EVO cams
3.2 intake manifold
crank was balanced, nitrided, micropolished, magnafluxed, extra oil ports added, and taken down to 2" rod journals
Pauter rods custom fit for 2" journals
Heavy duty NASCAR bearings, center one drilled for extra oil outlets
twin MSD's, 3.6 dual distributor
Magnecor wires (12)
72lb Siemens injectors/Marren rails
Protomotive full bay I/C; DP tail to allow for larger I'C, silicone hoses everywhere
2nd oil filter replaces on-engine Behr oil cooler
3 oil coolers; 2 fender Carrera, 1 center wide Setrab
Completely separate twin turbo coolant-based cooling system (conceived by Kris, gotta give him props); Tilton pump, Canton 2Q tank in front with pressure cap, and under-car Canton radiator for cooling). Keeps the heat out of the oil system, and minimizes coking.
Dual, Garrett GT3071r's, with the above custom stainless exhaust and Protomotive equal length headers
KEP Stage 1 clutch
G50/50, regeared with closer ratios, steel synchros, hydraulic clutch
Hargett G50 shifter

I'll skip the suspension, brakes, fire system, seats, and stereo for now


The pain wasn't that I lunched the engine/spun a bearing at VIR in Nov 2007. I was sick to my stomach, but thought it was a straight rebuild. The bear was that during the rebuild, I destroyed and discovered:

- the crank was scored deep
- a Pauter rod was toast
- found 2 cracked 3.2 heads (previously ran 3.2 heads, twin plugged, flame ringed, etc)

Instead of sourcing 2 more 3.2 heads, I opted for the more durable 3.3 heads because I track it. Of course this meant I "had to" get the 3.3's up to breathe as well as the 3.2's. The spun bearing ate into the crank, so I chose to use the 2" bearings as they supposedly last longer than stock. I rebuilt it last winter and I'm way overdue in posting any pics.

Not long before that I'd upgraded the turbos you see here.

It never ends, and I love it!

Oh, and I'm not sure about the 2" being quieter. Maybe ask RarlyL8 or mb911. Excuse me, Brian or Ben.
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Glenn
87' 930TT
Old 02-24-2009, 04:22 PM
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Awesome, makes me feel quite sane
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Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 02-24-2009, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
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Awesome, makes me feel quite sane
GOOD!

The whole "keep it stock" thing thing obviously isn't for us!

Stupid cars.
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Glenn
87' 930TT
Old 02-24-2009, 04:48 PM
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Twins are more fun!
 
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Very funny, guys

BTW, just curious, but does a twin turbo configuration running ~1.2bar EACH develop more HP than a single turbo setup running ~1.2bar?
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James
Carrera TT

(3.3, Protomotive MAP ECU, EFI, GT2 EVO CAMs, Twin Plugged, Twin Turbo's)
Old 02-24-2009, 04:51 PM
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If an electric train is traveling South at 40 mph, and the wind is blowing SW at 15.......

Oh, cr*p, here we go with one of those hypothetical questions few people can really answer from experience or knowledge, but many will try at great length. Actually, it's a really good question James.

See, I can be a wise a**, but I'm a curious one at heart.
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Glenn
87' 930TT
Old 02-24-2009, 04:56 PM
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It's all about the compressor size, a large turbo running 1.2bar is moving more air than a small one. If the CFM of two small turbos is exactly the same as the CFM of one large one i would think the HP would be the same at the same boost, but the two small ones would spool quicker.
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Jonathan.
87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
Old 540 BMW, XB12S Modified, for being a total hooligan
Old 02-24-2009, 05:32 PM
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Jonathan nailed it, it is true the twin will spool faster, though a properly sized single turbo will offer a similar performance.
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Lincoln Phillip
87 930 Motec EFI M600 G50/50 TurboKrafted Hell Hound.
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Old 02-24-2009, 06:17 PM
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Hey Glenn nice build, it would really have been over the top with my M&W ignition system.
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Lincoln Phillip
87 930 Motec EFI M600 G50/50 TurboKrafted Hell Hound.
Jeep, Chrysler, Dodge, Ram, SRT & AEV Dealer pm me for your Mopar needs.
"the 930 is THE CAR that started my PORSCHE love affair..." Magnus Walker
Old 02-24-2009, 06:32 PM
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Twins are more fun!
 
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Yeah, but having twins is just SO much cooler and unique... not to mention the bragging rights
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James
Carrera TT

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Old 02-24-2009, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehaze View Post
*********
Completely separate twin turbo coolant-based cooling system (conceived by Kris, gotta give him props); Tilton pump, Canton 2Q tank in front with pressure cap, and under-car Canton radiator for cooling). Keeps the heat out of the oil system, and minimizes coking.
*********

You know, I had thought about a system like this awhile back and I too think it's a dead nuts additions to any car running a GT turbo full bore with alot of heat going around. Big props for pulling it off and working it into the package you have there.

Quite a nice build.

How is the response with the twin 30R's? Care to disclose boost onset and threshold details I've been in a 996TT with a pair of 3071R's under the boot and that ramped up very nice but that's 3.6L and four valve heads so flow is a little different than our aircooled two valve predecessors.

Love it, absolutely love what you got there!
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Old 02-24-2009, 08:01 PM
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