Dave,

Gosh don't think I was in any way offended, it's that after I read your post I
went back and read mine. I sounded pretty adamant about the cone
having "NO" effect, when in fact your statement, as to what it did was correct.
I think Keith explained it best, the old toilet bowl vortex deal.
Varying opinions separate the wheat from the chaff and in the end we get,
at least, reasonable assumptions for unanswerable questions.

Cole

I think it is important to keep it as light as possible so spinning in aluminum would be ideal.
The metering plate is balanced in the CIS and adding weight to one end of the lever arm will create an imbalance against the piston/plunger end. This will be compensated slightly by increased control pressure but the overall change should be kept minimal.
The big benefit is increased control of the crossectional area that the air must pass thru between the metering plate and inside cone surface of the housing. The cone should also increase total MP travel so that stall and extra plunger movement happens at max air flow rates at high load and rpm.
I would be interested in buying one as long as they are tested by someone on a dyno for results in a controlled back to back test. Someone must measure A/F ratios and hp numbers during the run with and withtout the cone installed.
If you could post verified gains I would bet lots of guys would sign up to buy this thing. I don't buy things like the aftermarket plastic air filter housing because the supplier selling it tells me it makes 15 hp without proving it works with data.
Rarlyl8 does alot of testing and I value his comments, maybe he would be interested in developing this thing? I don't want to speak for him though.

Fred,

The velocity plate is spun aluminum . It can't weigh more than an ounce or so.
The sensor plate that was with it seemed to be heavier than the original. I will
weigh them when I get it back from Steve.

I was wondering if there weren't two objectives here. One being adding
weight, via, heavier sensor plate for more precise balancing of the arm, hence,
reacts faster initially & moves down quicker. Two being the velocity plate on top
of the sensor plate to allow the sensor plate to move further into the venturi
and past the stall point hense allowing full plunger movement and max fuel.

I am not a supplier selling something. I really don't need to have them made
because I already have one. I'm not going to have it Dynoed because the LM1
and the seat of my old a-- will give me enough info to tell if it's worth keeping on
the car or not. I've offered to have some made because I have the only one.
All I ask is help pay for the costs I incur. I would get an estimate for making
them and post it before proceeding if there is interest.

Cole

Please let me know the cost of the updated plate, thanks.

If you wanted to experiment with this idea and didn't want to spend alot of money doing it, there's a plethora of polypropylene round food and chemical containers out there in different diameters that you could cut the botton 3/4" off of and fasten it to the top of the sensor plate and try it out...

Polypropylene plastic is untouched by gasoline or oil fumes and it doesn't get very hot there so I don't think melting would be an issue either.
It's the same type of plastic that motor oil, paint remover, and many other nasty chemicals come in these days.

i'm absolutely no expert here.. but i'm trying to pick up on this and learn fast as i can, as i have interest in seeing how far CIS can be pushed before i look at $$$$ to build a sick EFI motor, anyways ...
i heard someone mention the similarity of the 930 CIS to the Mercedes 6.3 CIS.. except the 930 has 2 of the holes plugged in the fuel head...
so heres the question, why wouldn't we try and fit a 6.3 fuel head to the 930, it would seem like it owuld be the same as drilling out whats on there now??
would that not yield a lot more fuel potential??

The beautiful old 280SEL 6.3 motor had mechanical fuel injection, but the 450SEL 6.9 was CIS.

I've wondered if the CIS head with 8 threaded banjo fitting ports airflow sensor plate and housing stuck down in between the V of those 4.5, 5.0, and 6.9 CIS motors is the same ones they put on the 930.

Or if different, how different and how much could be interchanged? Being dusty old Mercedes parts they probably wouldn't have the insane Porsche tax added on...

J,

I think if you could chase some of the bosch part numbers you would find which
models are interchangable.

Cole

Tarheel,

930 CIS is good on fuel up to 400-450 HP with not too much work but above
that it gets real tough. Many feel the problem is lack of enough air at these
HP's. Most anyone looking for real HP, EFI is the only alternative.
Do some searches on this forum there is a wealth of info right here.

Cole

Should be proud to be the seller if you see that they work well. Let us know how yours functions and then I'm sure you can sell a lot of them right here which will take care of any cost. It's a simple bolt-on, something that I am interested in. I think we need to see it tested first by you and then report back to us your initial thoughts or seat of the old a--- feelings. After that, I'm sure we can get a group buy going.

Z,

Appreciate your comments. I didn't discover this thing I just happen to have
one.
The original credit goes to Mercedes & Bosch and secondly to the original guys
at Power Haus. We know it was used on Power Haus engines, who made some
of the strongest turbo engines ever built, and some of the guys like Chris Caroll
at Turbo-Kraft are still around.
We all enjoy this site Wayne has created for us and we all have received a
lot of help, support, and friendship. You bums kept me laughing through a lot of
very late nites when I was jonesen through 6 months of Chemo. This time we'll
get this done together and it can be the first mod we have ever gotten that we
didn't have to sell our kids to pay for.

Cole

try this on for size
 

Close, but no cigar. Just needs to be about 115mm in diameter to cover the entire metering plate. The one I've pictured is a bit smaller.
I'm interested in a being part of a group buy, if/when it all comes together.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1236556765.jpg

Mark,

If you look at the pic. I sent of the velocity plate I have you will notice the sensor plate under it extends beyond the velocity plate by 2-3 mm all the way around. If yours is relative close to the outer edge of the sensor plate I would give it a try. Look like the same thing with a different profile.

Cole

As the air has to bled off the sides of the metering plate, going to the re-discovered metering plate might help minimize turbulence and creating a low pressure area in the center of the MP. Two birds, one stone.

:) Are we getting one of these special metering plates on a dyno for a back to back against the stock to verify they help AFR's up top by pushing the metering plate to the end of its range?

Looks like the bottom of a Bud?

FYI, If you are thinking this device goes on top of your MP, that is not the case.

It is a replacement and because it is taller, it needs to be smaller in diameter to let some air past it so it can mostly act like the stock plate during the first 80% of its travel.

There is a formula in Bruce Anderson's book on modifying Porsche's for computing approximate effective compression ratio of a motor on boost. For a supper charged motor with little or modest inter-cooling they suggest keeping the effective CR under about 11.6/1. It is interesting to me the factory on there NA 993's went to 11.3/1.

It comes out at the about the following limits.

6.5/1 at 1.2 bar
7/1 at 1.1 bar
7.5/1 at 1 bar
8/1 at .8 bar
9.5/1 at .45 bar

It may be possible to go past this with extra fuel, pulled back timming, and an extra efficient inter-cooler but I do not understand the principles yet???

:)

I've done some fiddling in the past with the ideas in this thread.

Several stock 930 air boxes were hacked up before I tossed them all and stuck a simple paper filter on top the air meter assembly. I removed the cone from one of the air boxes and mounted it on the bottom side of the filter lid. Figured Porsche wouldn't have it there if not needed. I could not tell any difference with or without so I chucked that as well. My thought at the time was that this cone may have more function with the idle characteristics of a stock engine and not be necessary with my minimal CIS and non-stock tune.

Exactly what performance gain do you expect to see with the spun aluminum CIS version of the Tornado? I'd be glad to dyno one for you but I'm not sure what significant benefit this is for a sub-350whp 930. You would need to tell me exactly what parameters to measure. I assume AFR, HP and torque throughout the operating range.
Also, does installing this device on the metering plate require a re-calibration of the plate?

Someone mentioned fuel heads. The Mercedes V8 is the same casting as the 930. You can also use a 928 CIS fuel head. The problem with this is fuel distribution of the extra 2 injectors. The stock 930 pancake intake is not designed to distribute fuel evenly. Another problem is fuel mileage. You now have 8 injectors running all of the time.

Keith, had you just finished bathing it before snapping that picture:D?

That's a beer can... hmmm....

Interesting points...makes sense that the plate gets out of sink with respect to the air flow requirements as soon as we starting making changes. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I saw a similar instance where a stock 91 turbo was dyno'd and it had a pefectly flat AFR result. Then we dyno'd mine which had the classic rising afr to 6k (running headers and no cat).

Not sure if this has been added yet...but the audi turbo crowd has chased this quite a bit as well. Below is an older link discussing measuring the throw on the fuel plate which seem to be discussed here quite a bit;

http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/trouble_shooting/outofuel.htm

Seems like a good idea to add an air handling device (either on the fuel plate or in the cone) to help flatten out that curve. Trial and error could lead to to a few versions for different mod's.

Brian,

Glad to see you jump in here you always add reason to times of insanity.
Added quote to give you an idea of what this does; supposedly.
It mounts on top of the metering plate and weighs less than an ounce.
Does not require recalibration of the plats.

Cole

Keith,

Called my guy back today to help clarify my understanding of this thing.
It does in fact sit on top of the metering Plate. It weighs less than an ounce
and does not require recalibration of the plate.
In talking with him he did say it helps get the plate moving from rest, did
to allow fuller movement into the venturi, and (just for you because I know you'll love this) it did seem to
smooth out the rich midrange condition.

Cole

Jeff,

Great stuff. Appreciate your getting in here.

Cole

I read in different Porsche racing books that Porsche modified the metering plate on the 934 to keep up with the engine performance increase (it had to use CIS to comply with Groupe 4 rules). If someone could have access to a true 934, it would be a great opportunity to see what Porsche did to get the most of a CIS turboed engine.

Cole..
I was under the impression with the original sales description i posted earlier that you have to reset the position where the plate sits,i also thought you removed your old plate??..Maybe i am wrong though..
Below is a qoute from the sales advert i posted

THE FASTER THE AIR ENTERS YOUR ENGINE THE SOONER THE TURBO SPINS UP AND THE SOONER YOU GET UP TO SPEED,ITS THAT SIMPLE.AND HERE IS A WAY TO GET QUICKER ACCELERATION.OUR DOME SHAPED ALLUMINIUM VENTURI PLATE INREASES THE AIRFLOW PLATE SURFACE TO GIVE YOU BETTER AIR FUNNELING AND QUICKER FUEL ENRICHMENT.SIMPLE BOLT ON REQUIRES NO MODIFICATIONS.YOU WILL NEED A FEELER GAUGE FOR SETTING THE PLATE HEIGHT.

YOU WILL NEED A FEELER GAUGE FOR SETTING THE PLATE HEIGHT.???

[QUOTE=911st;4531558]Looks like the bottom of a Bud?QUOTE]

Yep, just trying to throw a little levity into the equation. So much testosterone and serious thought going around I felt we needed a dose of reality...or a beer for good measure. I was wondering who would notice!

this may be getting a little weird...
 

i'm looking at the bottom of the tub of fake butter in my refrigerator in a new light.

so many possibilities...

size does effect performance.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1236623393.jpg

Brian,

My feeling is the main idea of the rased profile metering plate is it adds windage to the top of the MP so as it progresses to the higher air flow point, the MP starts to stall. The hope is with the added volunm on top of the MP, it will not stall and allow access to the full fuel capacaty of the head. Thus, this will flaten the AFR curve.

If some one exausts the limits of the current head by getting full travel of the metering pin with air flows, then addes the HF head with accompining WUR adjustments, then somthing like the MBZ head could be looked at. On the factory 924 race cars they used a 928 head and plumbed two ports into one each injectors on a four cylinder.

That would not work well for us. However, blocking one and keeping the other for added fuel might work if one was going crazy. Maybe dump it at the intake of the IC for good atomization and added ID effect. Again, this would be extream as there a lot of capacaty in the stock head if one learns how to access it.

Below is using a wedge instead of a dome buy you might see we are tryin to keep the arm form stalling to soon and get a flater AFR curve and the fuel that most do not get our of there stock head.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1236627591.jpg

If you did use a fuel head from an 8 cylinder and hooked up one or two extra CIS injectors just above the throttle butterfly you could easily plumb them through a fuel solenoid available from a nitrous oxide kit supplier like NOS or nitrousworks so they aren't spraying extra fuel all the time and when you don't want it.

Then use an RPM switch to open the fuel solenoid above whatever RPM you decide on to richen things up. The summit racing digital rpm switch is programmable and half the price of the analog MSD rpm switch that also needs pill$

If you run the ground trigger wire from the rpm switch through a double throw multi pole 12 volt relay that is activated by the full throttle position switch on the the throttle body then you can have it so the extra injectors only spray fuel at full throttle over a certain rpm set by you.
With multiple poles on the double throw relay you can also wire the AC compressor to it so the AC compressor clutch disengages at full throttle, and... If you still have the '86 on, USA cars lambda system working then the trigger wire for the fuel enrichment relay under the driver seat would go to the relay instead of the throttle position switch.
Anotherwords you could have the factory's lambda system open loop mode fuel enrichment relay still work along with the other things being triggerd by the full throttle position switch.

You could also put a small light in the console or somewhere out of the way wired in parallel with the fuel solenoid that would light up letting you know the RPM switch is working

stup,


[QUOTE][SIMPLE BOLT ON REQUIRES NO MODIFICATIONS.YOU WILL NEED A FEELER GAUGE FOR SETTING THE PLATE HEIGHT.
/QUOTE]

I had always been under the impression you simply removed the bolt
holding the plate in place sit the venturi plate on top and reattached the
center bolt. You do need the feeler gauge to recenter the original metering
plate before you tighten it down. Mine came with it's own sensor plate as
well as the venturi plate and bolt. Then after reading Keith's post I thought I
had better check. The guy I talk to is the guy who used them and had
them made.

Cole

Thought of that to and it is interesting. One additional injector will add about 17% more fuel. That is a big jump. However, if you were at 14.5 that could taking you to 12.5/1 so it might work.

Having 7 run at all time and you can recalibrate the control pressure to slow the metering plate travel down and this just adds more range using a normal tuning approach. No add ons required.

At some point air flow capacity has to become the restriction.

I am guessing we can get the following added fueling.

Sock head taking Metering Plate to full travel. 10-15% plus. (Andial fueler gets that much)

Re-adjusted to flow more (IA). 10-15% more fuel.

7th injector, 17%

8th injector, 34%

That could be up to 80% more fuel possible.

If stock deliver max is about 380hp that would take us to almost 700hp if we can figure out how to flow enough air.

;)

J & Mark,



If you give it some thought we are a little humor !!!!!

It kinda reminded me of the top off the plastic case my
first wife's diaphragm came in; only much smaller !!!!!!!

Cole

Seems to me you'd need the origonal sensor plate in place. If a smaller diameter dished sensor plate was installed in place of the origonal one and the air gap around the edge of the plate was larger than stock the cranking on the starter motor would not be enough to to pull it down and turn the fuel pumps on and expose the beginning of the metering slits in the fuel head for idle speed fuel delivery.

Anotherwords if the airgap at the edge of the sensorplate was bigger than stock by a couple mm or more the amount of air being sucked by when trying to start the car would just flow through the larger gap and the plate would not move and the pumps would not come on and the car would never start.

If this gadget was on top of the existing sensor plate, then starting and idle speed would move the plate into the same position as origonally, but it seems at higher rpms the sensor plate would be sucked or pulled downward more while pushing the control plunger higher in the fuel head resulting in more fuel going to the injectors... thats the idea anyway.

[QUOTE=cole930;4532794]stup,


Dose not add up for me. I think you change them out.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat3.gif Is anyone scheduled to dyno said plate to see if we get the extra fuel?

Again, if this works like it should it is basically a $100 fueler that will solve most owners want when it comes to running 1 bar boost.

I got one point more fuel by bleeding CP using basically an Andial fueler. If we did not have capacity left, this would not work.

If you richen idle to 3.5% CO, you will see more fuel up top. If we did not have untaped capacity, this would not work.

The MP shurly stalls. Add mass to it so the air flow pushes it down further and we will bet more fuel and a flatter AFR curve!

Can we get the metering plate to Brian or someone to test it on a dyno or using a Wide band on the street?:)

" Thats it Mr. Watson thats it !!!!!"

Cole

To All,



I do not have the venturi plate in my hands at this time. Steve Weiner has it
with my CIS . He is going to install it after he finishes the mod on my CIS. I will
have it back within a couple weeks. I would be willing to send it to Brian for
testing. I have arrangements made for having them produced.
As soon as I get it back I will take more pictures and post them so you
can all get a better look at it. At that time we can all decide who is going to
do what and if everything pans out I will make them available to anyone who
wants one. By the way, they also used them on their large displacement, big HP
engines with fuelers and multiple turbos.

Cole

The performance gains are more for engines with upgrades as opposed to stock motors. The whole idea is to get full travel of the MP arm which allows more fuel into the engine during higher boost levels. I think someone here who dyno'ed an engine said that at full boost they were able to flood the motor just by pushing down on the stock MP with a screw driver. So there is much more full to be had and this spun aluminum version allegedly allows it. The beauty of this thing would be in maintaining the CIS without all the craziness of EFI. Blame it on the economy. LoL

Now that would be a very interesting Spy picture. Perhaps that is where this idea came from. I'm just wondering why the idea never took off and why the spun aluminum MP got lost in the wind????

Z,

I've been a big 934 fan for a long time. It is extremely hard to find any information on the CIs used on the original 934. Here is a pic. and a quote
about the unit.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1236649312.jpg
Steve Weiner raced 934's and 935's and has probably as much knowledge about the 934 CIS as anyone you can find. Steve has said the 934 CIS was completely different than the CIS we know on our 930's. One of these days I will ask him to give me some particulars.

You have to understand the CIS on 934's was pretty short lived as they were replaced with mechanical injection to help eliminate the turbo lag. Turbo Porsche's were relative new and there were not nearly as many out there as there are now.
As 930's got older and used 930's got more affordable the crazies started trying to get them to go faster and here we are. In the mean time all that old school stuff went by the wayside in lieu of 700HP and EFI. I mean it was probably 15 years ago when Power Hause even did this velocity plate. Been a lot of technology under the bridge since then. There are a lot of Porsche's out there still running CIS but only the crazies are worried about afr's under 1bar of boost. I'm
older than dirt and can't afford EFI so I'll dig this old stuff out wherever I can find it.
And some times it even works out.

Cole

Here's some old school.

These are the original 934 factory headers and Turbo I'm putting on "The Old Sled"


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1236653590.jpg


Cole