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Upgrades for 86 Turbo

Since I am completely new to the Turbo world...I am thinking about buying an I/C and a muffler for my car but I don't necessarily want to buy new. What I/C's would you guys recommend, I am thinking a ruf I/C would be nice and open to muffler brands. What should I expect to pay? Also, should I also do headers and think about upgrading the Turbo....
Here is something for you guys to laugh about...I've had several fast cars in the past, I've also had Horsepower monsters and that's not what I am after...I am mostly wanting to free up the engine from all of the heat the the stock system creates...ideas? thoughts? In other words, I haven't been bitten by the mod bug
Old 03-15-2009, 07:36 PM
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Rarlyl8 has some headers/exhaust/turbos for a good price and mb911 (M&K) has some nice mufflers. Both are valued contributors to the 930 forum. Look in the classified forum for some used stuff including intercoolers.
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Old 03-15-2009, 11:08 PM
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How far you go is of course budget driven. Fortunately you can pay as you go with the 930 as most enhancement is bolt-on.
My general guide is to start at the tailpipe and work your way to the engine. Muffler, turbo, intercooler, more boost, headers, cams, headwork in that order. The most noticeable difference occurs with a turbo and muffler change.
If you are looking to go used be mindful of the condition as all exhaust parts have limited life and turbos can cause great harm when damaged or if they disintegrate.
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Old 03-16-2009, 05:11 AM
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Recently did my first upgrade on my stock 78 mod 930.

Installed the dual outlet muffler from Brian at RalyL8.

WOW, I must say it was a big difference in performance. The stock K26 spooled so much quicker and performance was greatly improved.

Not to mention the sound :-)
Old 03-16-2009, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinhere View Post
Since I am completely new to the Turbo world...I am thinking about buying an I/C and a muffler for my car but I don't necessarily want to buy new. What I/C's would you guys recommend, I am thinking a ruf I/C would be nice and open to muffler brands. What should I expect to pay? Also, should I also do headers and think about upgrading the Turbo....
Here is something for you guys to laugh about...I've had several fast cars in the past, I've also had Horsepower monsters and that's not what I am after...I am mostly wanting to free up the engine from all of the heat the the stock system creates...ideas? thoughts? In other words, I haven't been bitten by the mod bug

Love to see pics .......and Yugo pics too
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Old 03-16-2009, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinhere View Post
Since I am completely new to the Turbo world...I am thinking about buying an I/C and a muffler for my car but I don't necessarily want to buy new. What I/C's would you guys recommend, I am thinking a ruf I/C would be nice and open to muffler brands. What should I expect to pay? Also, should I also do headers and think about upgrading the Turbo....
Here is something for you guys to laugh about...I've had several fast cars in the past, I've also had Horsepower monsters and that's not what I am after...I am mostly wanting to free up the engine from all of the heat the the stock system creates...ideas? thoughts? In other words, I haven't been bitten by the mod bug
I don't consider the 930 to be a great horsepower monster candidate anyway. The secret IMO is to find balance. I am removing about 500 lbs of weight off my car and not really focusing on increasing horsepower. I think the results will be much better than just having a 600 hp flame thrower engine, which ends up being expensive and time consuming on a 930, with marginal reliability unless you upgrade every component on the car, or spend 50 grand.

I think headers and muffler and straight wastegate dump pipe are the best way to start, and modern turbo if you don't have one.

These cars are about balance and not drag racing. They are a car for twisty roads, and having horsepower that overwhelms the chassis is a very slippery slope on these cars IMO.
Old 03-16-2009, 08:24 AM
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Not an expert, just my opinion.

Decide what your goals are for the car. Shoot for the moon HP, improved power with divability, colectability, track car...

Turbos can eat an insain amount of money and achive insain power levels. However, there are some natural levels of development.

Stage I: Lets call this a tuned motor. By just changing out the muffer to the lowest back pressure unit you can stand, verifying you get .8 to .85 bar boost, setting the CO to 3% and /or getting it set up on a dyno by somone that knows there stuff to optimize the ignition and Air Fuel ratios makes for a nice car with much less lag that is about 330+hp fast. (Add an R&P, suspention kit, and some track time and fue with more HP will come close to catching you.)

Stage II: "The sweet spot" A package with a good intercooler, well matched and effecent turbo, updated blow off valve, and .9bar boost is kind of the sweet spot for a 930. It dose not overly tax basic design or thermal limits to any great extent. It should be good for about 360-380hp and makes the car a rocket. The
K27-7200 turbo works very well here and comes in hard.

Stage III: Now you are entering the 400hp club. This requires a turbo that can support more HP (K29 or HF), a fuelling strategy, and management of other areas that are starting to approach there limits. Attention should be paid to things like the clutch, oil cooling, cylinder head sealing when playing at this level.

Ports and cams. At some point when the motor gets to come out for somthing like a reseal or a clutch, it may be an opertunity to improve you motors effecency (VE) by improveing how well it breaths. The stock cams and ports are actually very acceptable and can take you quite a way. However, the intake ports are on the small side to help with air fuel mixing on CIS for improved effissions. Also there are cams grinds that do help the motor breath easer for some added improvement.

Gearing: Many have found that by changing out the Ring & Pinion for a lower gear ratio, it can wake up a 930. Boost is reached faster in first and the motor stays in the fat part of the HP curve more. A stage one or stage two car with will a lower R&O or better yet, closer ratio gears feels and is much faster.

Headers: You have the Euro Style heat exchangers already. Do not let anyone tell you they need to be changed. They are dead reliable and do not crack or drag. Most exaust gains are in the muffler. There is not much differance in volunm between your system and most of the shorty systems if you count there long wast-gate tube and changing them is not going to make a big differance in lag or HP levels for the expence involved. (May that have spent the $2k will dissagree.)

Boost: Try not go to far with adding boost. Going from .8 bar to 1 bar can add about 10% power at the very most and only if the motor dose not have restrictions some where else. Going from .9 bar to 1 bar might get you 10-15 hp depending on other components. Going to 1 bar on a 930 is like running 11+/1 compession on a normally asperated car. Further is is like doing so with the intake air being heated to boot. Running 1 bar with 7/1 compression ratio is very near the limit of what pump gas can support. Running lower boost on a well tuned car with the right AFR's should get you almost the same HP.

Don't forget handling. There is a lot of fun to be had there also.

Enjoy the ride.

Old 03-16-2009, 12:52 PM
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IDGAF27, I am sorry but I don't have any pics of the Yugo...I am presently getting 22's/spinners on the car

Thank you everyone for your input...reading 911ST's list, I think that I want to be in the "sweet spot" or stage II...I'd love to concentrate on the specifics of that set-up.
I've never been a hands on kind of guy but I would love to get involved this time around outside of writing a check (my bank account isn't what it used to be...imagine that ). Could you guys get specific as to which way you guys would go under the Stage II plan?
Again, my aim is to have a balanced car, I will eventually look at suspension upgrades but my car is a complete virgin and I'd like to keep it close to original. Also, whatever upgrades I make need to be completely reversible.
Old 03-16-2009, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Not an expert, just my opinion.

Decide what your goals are for the car. Shoot for the moon HP, improved power with divability, colectability, track car...

Turbos can eat an insain amount of money and achive insain power levels. However, there are some natural levels of development.

Stage I: Lets call this a tuned motor. By just changing out the muffer to the lowest back pressure unit you can stand, verifying you get .8 to .85 bar boost, setting the CO to 3% and /or getting it set up on a dyno by somone that knows there stuff to optimize the ignition and Air Fuel ratios makes for a nice car with much less lag that is about 330+hp fast. (Add an R&P, suspention kit, and some track time and fue with more HP will come close to catching you.)

Stage II: "The sweet spot" A package with a good intercooler, well matched and effecent turbo, updated blow off valve, and .9bar boost is kind of the sweet spot for a 930. It dose not overly tax basic design or thermal limits to any great extent. It should be good for about 360-380hp and makes the car a rocket. The
K27-7200 turbo works very well here and comes in hard.

Stage III: Now you are entering the 400hp club. This requires a turbo that can support more HP (K29 or HF), a fuelling strategy, and management of other areas that are starting to approach there limits. Attention should be paid to things like the clutch, oil cooling, cylinder head sealing when playing at this level.

Ports and cams. At some point when the motor gets to come out for somthing like a reseal or a clutch, it may be an opertunity to improve you motors effecency (VE) by improveing how well it breaths. The stock cams and ports are actually very acceptable and can take you quite a way. However, the intake ports are on the small side to help with air fuel mixing on CIS for improved effissions. Also there are cams grinds that do help the motor breath easer for some added improvement.

Gearing: Many have found that by changing out the Ring & Pinion for a lower gear ratio, it can wake up a 930. Boost is reached faster in first and the motor stays in the fat part of the HP curve more. A stage one or stage two car with will a lower R&O or better yet, closer ratio gears feels and is much faster.

Headers: You have the Euro Style heat exchangers already. Do not let anyone tell you they need to be changed. They are dead reliable and do not crack or drag. Most exaust gains are in the muffler. There is not much differance in volunm between your system and most of the shorty systems if you count there long wast-gate tube and changing them is not going to make a big differance in lag or HP levels for the expence involved. (May that have spent the $2k will dissagree.)

Boost: Try not go to far with adding boost. Going from .8 bar to 1 bar can add about 10% power at the very most and only if the motor dose not have restrictions some where else. Going from .9 bar to 1 bar might get you 10-15 hp depending on other components. Going to 1 bar on a 930 is like running 11+/1 compession on a normally asperated car. Further is is like doing so with the intake air being heated to boot. Running 1 bar with 7/1 compression ratio is very near the limit of what pump gas can support. Running lower boost on a well tuned car with the right AFR's should get you almost the same HP.

Don't forget handling. There is a lot of fun to be had there also.

Enjoy the ride.

Great writeup....that pretty much sums it all up.
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Old 03-16-2009, 05:49 PM
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You can handle bolt-ons yourself. Great way to get your hands dirty and bond with your car. All of your old parts can be carefully packed away to retain value.
As stated, the K27-7200 is the standard upgrade for the stock 930. You gain ~25hp or so with a lot more useable torque. Couple that with a free flowing muffler and the car is transformed. Revs quicker, pulls harder and sounds incredible!
Adding an intercooler and bumping the boost will net you another 20hp or so.
Headers are less bang for the buck at the "Stage II" level. They help with driveability and add another 15hp or so. There are options in this area ranging from $400 to $2500 depending on design and quality.
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Old 03-16-2009, 06:31 PM
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I am jealous, white in my favorite Porsche color and the 930 is my fav Porsche.

Are you willing to change out the Inter-cooler? You can still get a good power without doing so but that is about the best way to make Hp right after a muffler change.

Think increasses in effecency, not how do I carry 1 bar to red line. If a motor flows well, it will swallow as much air at .8 bar as another less effecent motor at 1 bar.

My opinion and others will disagree: K27-7200 turbo, .9 bar boost spring, sport muffler, inter-cooler (C2Turbo, Koklen IC, Andial, or? in order of choice.), 3% CO at idle, ports and SC cams when the motor comes out for something else.

I will get push back for this but I would avoid the HF or K29. They do "start to" come in sooner (bigger compressor pushes more air for earlier boost onset) and make more HP up top. However, They they build to full boost slower and make the car more like a big V8. The are also prone to over boost at upper rpms because of the small hot side and they increase pressure in the exhaust manfold lowering VE a little. Further, they need a fueling strategy to support the last 1000 or so rpm's of power. The 7200 comes in much harder, starts just a little later, and works very well up to .9bar. Full boost by 3000 rpm is still very possible. Then get it on a dyno to dial in the AFR and ignition with someone that knows these cars.

There is a lot of extra in the detials.

Note that your AFR will change from hot to cold session so setting it up during the hot time of the year is best. It will run a little leaner during the cold weather and that is ok because of the cooler charge temps.

I am assuming a well maintained car. Valves adjusted, injectors cleaned and checked. Injector / head flow balance checked, good plugs, wires, clean air filter...

An AFR gage on the dash is good insurance on a turbo but not required. The stock air cleaner is a good unit. No reasion to change it except it can make it easyer to change the air filter. Some add holes to the pre filter secton or cut it off. May not add much more than sound though. When clutch time comes, somthing you can slip a little with out burning up is nice. A lower ring & pinion is well worth the effort and price. Use the money saved on fancy fueling stuff and a custom turbo here.

A couple of exoteric tricks.

Replace the black plastic Bosche BOV that comes with most aftermarket IC's with an adjustable piston style BOV. Reverse its normal direction of install so the boost wants to push it open. Vacunm and air flow in the intercooler section will keep it open during non acceleration so the turbo will be spinning faster and in reserve. This will get you less exaust back pressure on the freeway during cruse and quicker boost with acceleration when you need it. (I used to get instant .5 bar boost from freeway curse). You may have to play with the spring tension so it closes as soon as you blip the throtle. Just put put somthing on the BOV and listen to it as you blip the throtle and you should hear is close. Under acceleration boost pressure building up against the much larger surface area of the piston in the upper chamber will ensure the valve slams shut with boost and stays fully closed under boost.

Find someone that can modify the WUR to be boost sensing. This may be hard. the 76/77 3.o Turbo WUR worked this way. This will not just give you boost enrichmen but will gain you acceleration enrichment and alow you to run a little leaner at idle and curse. You will get added fuel instantly with acceleration instead at .5 bar boost and it will also help the metering plate to open faster. If done righ this all helps reduce lag.

The comb of low back pressure muffler, fast spool K27-7200, vac open / accel closed BOV, and a vac sensing WUR makes a big, big differance in lag and how fast bost comes on. You can also play with cam timming and ignition some for further improvement. All this addes up to a huge amount of amost instant mid range power with this combonation and no loss of boost between shifts. Please note a vac sensing mod is not a good fit with a K29 or HF that needs more fuel up top with out other accomidations.

This is a little different than the direction that most are curently taking but trust me, it works very very well once dialed in.
Old 03-16-2009, 06:45 PM
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My 930 was bone-stock (well, it did have a K27) when I got it. The best thing I did (besides learn how to do all of the work myself with the help of this board) was to pull the stock muffler and cat off and replaced it with an aftermarket exhaust. The engine runs cooler, lag is reduced, and the sound is just great!

- Mike
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Old 03-16-2009, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
This is a little different than the direction that most are curently taking but trust me, it works very very well once dialed in.

Wow... thanks for your posts here, quite well put IMHO.

A thought: 'something' like this should be put up on some sort of FAQ here maybe for future ref.
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Old 03-16-2009, 07:35 PM
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911ST, Thank you for the compliment and all of your advise...by the way, if you're not an expert...
Old 03-16-2009, 07:51 PM
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I did some research on the I/C from the 965, am I to assume that the A/C will have to be relocated if I use the 965 I/C?
Old 03-17-2009, 08:29 AM
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We understand how you feel about your "virgin" car, we all have been there...

Decision time... to a museum/garage queen or use it?... USE IT!!!!

Welcome to the real world, time to star "improving" a well sorted out machine and enjoy it.
Old 03-17-2009, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinhere View Post
I did some research on the I/C from the 965, am I to assume that the A/C will have to be relocated if I use the 965 I/C?

The aircon is crap anyway, use it as a garage door stop
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:54 AM
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I would recommend that you give careful consideration to your end goal and build your cars modifications accordingly. If you have a long term goal of doing EFI, you might not want to buy a certain turbo or intercooler for optimum CIS use. It goes on and on, but before you start hanging parts on your car be brutally honest with yourself about where you want end up once the dust settles. Trust me, you can blow a lot of money otherwise.
Old 03-17-2009, 11:43 AM
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I simply want to let my car breathe a little easier. I don't want a super fast car, I am tired of paying for lawyers, court fees and tickets....

The A/C unit is actually working rather well and I want to keep it as it is.

911st described it best...

Stage I: Lets call this a tuned motor. By just changing out the muffler to the lowest back pressure unit you can stand, verifying you get .8 to .85 bar boost, setting the CO to 3% and /or getting it set up on a dyno by someone that knows their stuff to optimize the ignition and Air Fuel ratios makes for a nice car with much less lag that is about 330+hp fast.

"Stage II: "The sweet spot" A package with a good intercooler, well matched and efficient turbo, updated blow off valve, and .9bar boost is kind of the sweet spot for a 930. It does not overly tax basic design or thermal limits to any great extent. It should be good for about 360-380hp and makes the car a rocket. The K27-7200 turbo works very well here and comes in hard."

With that in mind, I'd like to concentrate on what will bring me to stage II without any further modifications, keeping the A/C as well as staying as close to the original car.

Last edited by georgeinhere; 03-17-2009 at 01:07 PM..
Old 03-17-2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
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I did some research on the I/C from the 965, am I to assume that the A/C will have to be relocated if I use the 965 I/C?
That is a good question. The C2Turbo did not have a condenser in the back.

Maybe make a new post asking that question.

I belive the Koklen, B&B, and most of the Andial units fit to the side in the area of the original unit.

The C2T dose have a tilt that may let it clip under the end of the 930 condenser.

???

Old 03-17-2009, 05:45 PM
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