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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinRice View Post

Yep, if there is no fuel coming from the injectors, then it all returns to the tank. That would be a good indicator of how well the system is performing by measuring the return flow at idle and max RPM.
Thanks for your input !

So if I am correct, the returned flow will be equal to the stated flow at the stated pressure right ? for example , if a fuel pump delivers 1.5 liters / 30 sec at 6.8 bar, as there is no flow in the injectors, it means that the total returned flow will be equal to 1.5 liters/sec .... so the returned flow through the pressure regulator will be equal to 1.5 minus the flow through the WUR (0.125 liters / 30 sec) so 1.38 Liter/ sec are sent back to the tank right .... is it correct ?

Just for example with the 044 fuel pump .... is it correct or am I wrong ?







Quote:
Originally Posted by WinRice View Post

When you look at the CIS system running 6.8 bar versus EFI running around 2.5 bar, you realize CIS needs better pumps, because they are required to deliver the same fuel volume, for the same amount of horsepower, at a higher pressure.
+1 Agree, it even need more fuel since the WUR and the stock lambda freq valve must be supplied ( freq valve is driven at 50% duty cycle at WOT) By their flow rate, that both device are something equal to 2 injectors.


The stock fuel supply system must able to provide at least 1.5 liter / 30sec at free flow. It is reasonnable to think that it provides about 20 to 30 % less under 6.8 bar fuel pressure. If it is the case, the real flow capability under pressure is equal to 1.2 L / 30 seconde . Then from this, The WUR send back about 0.125 ml / 30 sec (idle/4.5 b) ) to the tank. On boost (CP= 2.9 bar) this value should increase to arround 200 ml / 30 sec. In the mean time, the frequency valve is triggered at 50% duty cycle. Under 6.8 bar of pressure at WOT , it is reasonnable to think that this device send about 150 ml/ 30 sec .

So finally, from the 1.2 liter available, we must deduct 0.35 liter

So the final available fuel flow can be about 0.85 L / 30 seconde. ( 150 ml / injector)

Question to the specialist and enthousiat, what power can be obtained with this fuel volume flow ?
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Old 07-03-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thierry25 View Post
Thanks for your input !

So if I am correct, the returned flow will be equal to the stated flow at the stated pressure right ? for example , if a fuel pump delivers 1.5 liters / 30 sec at 6.8 bar, as there is no flow in the injectors, it means that the total returned flow will be equal to 1.5 liters/sec .... so the returned flow through the pressure regulator will be equal to 1.5 minus the flow through the WUR (0.125 liters / 30 sec) so 1.38 Liter/ sec are sent back to the tank right .... is it correct ?
Looking at my Bosch K-Jet Manual, the WUR doesn't use or recirculate any fuel, it just sets the control pressure and bleeds the excess fuel back to the tank through the return side of the primary pressure regulator. So, if there is no injector flow, then all the fuel supplied 'in' equals all the fuel 'out' of the return.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thierry25 View Post
Just for example with the 044 fuel pump .... is it correct or am I wrong ?
Yep, running at 6.8 bar, with no flow from the injectors, you should see 1.5L/30sec returned. What's interesting to note on the pump chart, is the volume delivered at the CIS 6.8 bar VS the volume delivered at the typical EFI pressure of 2.5 bar. The volume at 2.5 bar is almost 30% higher. Another interesting note, is look at the volume at 6.8 bar VS 7.4 bar, almost the same, then it drops off drastically. Looks like 7.4 bar is about the max usable pressure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thierry25 View Post
+1 Agree, it even need more fuel since the WUR and the stock lambda freq valve must be supplied ( freq valve is driven at 50% duty cycle at WOT) By their flow rate, that both device are something equal to 2 injectors.


The stock fuel supply system must able to provide at least 1.5 liter / 30sec at free flow. It is reasonnable to think that it provides about 20 to 30 % less under 6.8 bar fuel pressure. If it is the case, the real flow capability under pressure is equal to 1.2 L / 30 seconde . Then from this, The WUR send back about 0.125 ml / 30 sec (idle/4.5 b) ) to the tank. On boost (CP= 2.9 bar) this value should increase to arround 200 ml / 30 sec. In the mean time, the frequency valve is triggered at 50% duty cycle. Under 6.8 bar of pressure at WOT , it is reasonnable to think that this device send about 150 ml/ 30 sec .
One of the reasons I said the amount of return fuel flow would be of interest. Theoretically, if the primary pressure regulator is set to 6.8 bar, and the fuel system was not delivering the required volume at max RPM, the pressure would drop, if the pressure drops below 6.8 bar the primary pressure regulator stays shut, not bypassing any fuel, therefore, no fuel would be flowing from the return line.

It would be a good test to put your fuel pressure gage in the fuel supply line and see where it holds from idle to full throttle, that would definitely show if you have the fuel supply you need.
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Old 07-03-2009, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinRice View Post
Looking at my Bosch K-Jet Manual, the WUR doesn't use or recirculate any fuel, it just sets the control pressure and bleeds the excess fuel back to the tank through the return side of the primary pressure regulator. So, if there is no injector flow, then all the fuel supplied 'in' equals all the fuel 'out' of the return.
Interesting input thanks !

Maybe a misunderstanding due to my english

As to the WUR, as you said the WUR adjust the CP pressure and send back the fuel excess to the tank. This fuel excess is equal to 125 ml/ 30 sec ( at idle)... not ridiculous !

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinRice View Post

Yep, running at 6.8 bar, with no flow from the injectors, you should see 1.5L/30sec returned. What's interesting to note on the pump chart, is the volume delivered at the CIS 6.8 bar VS the volume delivered at the typical EFI pressure of 2.5 bar. The volume at 2.5 bar is almost 30% higher. Another interesting note, is look at the volume at 6.8 bar VS 7.4 bar, almost the same, then it drops off drastically. Looks like 7.4 bar is about the max usable pressure.

One of the reasons I said the amount of return fuel flow would be of interest. Theoretically, if the primary pressure regulator is set to 6.8 bar, and the fuel system was not delivering the required volume at max RPM, the pressure would drop, if the pressure drops below 6.8 bar the primary pressure regulator stays shut, not bypassing any fuel, therefore, no fuel would be flowing from the return line.

Very nice explanation. Yes I am agree

Just a question..... the lambda frequency valve + WUR send some fuel in the return line.... why don't you take these two flow in consideration ??
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Old 07-03-2009, 12:11 PM
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Just a thought.

If the fuel pump has a built in pressure bypass it might be set not very far above the system pressure expected in the fuel head.

It would be interesting to just put a pressure gage on the pump supply line so the fuel can not go aware except the gage and turn on the pump. This would tell us what the pump's relief pressure is.

Then if the pump bypasses at say 105 psi (no flow) and we have the system pressure set at 97 it is likely that our limitation.

If so, can we shim the pump's pressure relief instead of buying a new pump(s)?

Keith
Old 07-03-2009, 01:14 PM
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There is a tiny fuel filter in the brass fuel inlet fitting on some 930 fuel heads.
It can't be neccesary with the big main fuel filter next to the accumulator in the loop so removing it may increase some fuel supply flow to the head.

Cleaning the fuel screen on the fuel pickup in the gas tank could also help flow.

There's even little conical shaped fuel filter screens in each CIS injector. They can be cleaned by wiring the injector pintle open with a tiny strand of copper wire and back flushing the injectors with 120psi compressed air and injector cleaner.

Thats a lot of fuel filters to possibly restrict flow...

Here's a few pics of the tiny removable plastic fuel filter screen in the brass fuel inlet fitting on some fuel heads from both sides.
It has to be restricting fuel flow to some degree.


Old 07-03-2009, 01:18 PM
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"can we shim the pump's pressure relief instead of buying a new pump(s)?"

Years ago peeled apart a seized bosch fuel injection pump from a BMW 533 because I wanted to see how they work.
The polished stainless steel rollers that are actually doing the pumping look alot like roller bearing rollers. I still have the curved magnets from the electric motor stuck to my refrigerator.. The pump had seized because sand or dirt got into the rollers.

Anyway, the internal pressure relief valve was on the inside of the aluminum casing in the internal steel frame and you can't get at it without destroying the fuel pump. It's like a spring loaded ball bearing on a seat in the internal frame that lets fuel recirculate inside the pump if pressure goes too high.

The round cylindrical aluminum case is crimped onto the (phenolic?) plastic end with an 0-ring under the crimped on section. Unfortunately they can't be taken apart and put back together.
Old 07-03-2009, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
System Pressure with the pressure reg bumped up.

The factory pumps an support a lot of HP. The question is can they do so with a restriction that reqires around 100PSI or so.

Just like with EFI injectors, it you bump the fuel pressure, your can support more HP.
Hello Keith


you speak about restriction....good thinking !


Look at what STUP did with his great flow matching thread....

Look at the flowed fuel he's got on each head output with and without injector....


Meter head flow adjustment question??





There is much more flowed fuel without connected injectors ....so it seems that the head restriction is not such huge...am I wrong ?

Question: how to explain this such difference ?

Injectors with lower restriction and lower opening pressure should bring much more fuel....how od you think ?
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Old 07-03-2009, 02:20 PM
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"There is much more flowed fuel without connected injectors ....so it seems that the head restriction is not such huge...am I wrong ?

Question: how to explain this such difference ?"

I'm not Keith, but I believe the difference is because with no injectors on the lines there is no resistance to flow from the fuel head so the 6 individual differential valves are having little to no effect on fuel flow adjustment.

Those 6 differential valves in the fuel head are working like 6 individual little adjustable fuel pressure regulators and they have to have the resistance of the injectors opening pressure and flow resistance for them to regulate flow.

Anotherwords the differential pressure is system pressure on the bottom of the diaphram and with no resistance to flow on the top side from fuel injectors, just fuel flowing out of the injector lines freely... there is no differential valve effect going on.

Put the injectors on the lines and the now you have pressure on the top side of the diaphram because of the fuel injectors resistance to flow.

What would also be interesting would be to move the injectors around to different lines and you would see if one injector flows more than another..
There is a cone shaped fine screen fuel filter in each CIS injector and they do collect dirt from somewhere after years and miles.

The differential valves have small 3mm allen head spring tension adjustments under the 4mm button head cap screws on the top of the head that put spring pressure on the top side of the diaphram to work against system pressure on the bottom side of the diaphram. adjusting those 3mm allen screws is how you can fine tune and adjust the flow of each injector so they all match.

This diagram keith posted a while back shows the fuel flow direction through some parts of the fuel head, including the differential valves.
Old 07-03-2009, 02:41 PM
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I personally think that thread on balancing injector flows is probably one of the most important threads to a CIS 930 owner I have seen.

Flow (delivery-quantity) without back pressure and flow under pressure are two different things and may not even come close to each other.

If the injectors are a restriction then pressure at the injector will raise until it is equal to system pressure.

If we want to see if the injectors are a restriction, put a gage on one line at the head and see what pressure they get up to at peak HP (or with the fuel pumps running and the metering plate pushed all the way down).

If they are a restriction, then we need to bump system pressure so we can force more fuel through them or source larger injectors.

It should not be to difficult to have an injector balancing service to flow test an injector at system pressure and see what its max capacity is.

I personally do not think the US lines or injectors are a restriction though others that know more than I think they are. One So. Cal. 930 tuner I talked to years ago replaces the lines and injectors w euro units on the CIS trubo's he dose (a former Andial wrench).

We are all skipping over Chad's RPM programmable boost control that he has in place. With this he can bump his boost to almost any level he wants at any rpm and then taper pull boost back as he reaches the fueling limit. This could fatten horsepower under the curve substantially and still let him run to red line with safe AFR's making for a significant increase in speed potential.
Old 07-03-2009, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thierry25 View Post
Just a question..... the lambda frequency valve + WUR send some fuel in the return line.... why don't you take these two flow in consideration ??
In my mind at least, I view the head as two systems.

1. Part one system has the primary pressure regulator that takes the flow of fuel from the tank through the fuel pumps, accumulator and filter, controls the total system pressure, and bleeds off the excess back to the tank throught the return line. It's only purpose is to maintain the proper system pressure and volume required by the remaining components of the head.

2. Part two of the system would be the WUR, your bypass FV, lambda FV, plunger, metering slots, chambers and air flap. These are the devices that control the fuel delivered by the injectors based upon engine demand, temperature, manifold pressure, AFR, etc.

To answer your question, I've been talking about the 'part one' supply side only. If we don't have properly controlled fuel and volume, the 'part two' side can't function as well.
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Old 07-03-2009, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
I personally think that thread on balancing injector flows is probably one of the most important threads to a CIS 930 owner I have seen.

Flow (delivery-quantity) without back pressure and flow under pressure are two different things and may not even come close to each other.
Couldn't agree more.

The Bosch K-Jet manual shows the injectors pop open around 3.5 bar, but this has got to vary between batches, and over time from material fatigue. When you factor in the possibility of variences in the lines and head chambers, along with the possibility of filter plugging, as pointed out by JFairman, this could be real problem.

Frankly, this has me scared a bit!

I need to do the 'STUP' test!
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Old 07-03-2009, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
.

Flow (delivery-quantity) without back pressure and flow under pressure are two different things and may not even come close to each other.

.
KEITH , JF

Yes they are 2 different thing..... the STUP experience show you one of the solution to get more fuel with K JET !!!!


Yes under no ouput restriction , the upper chamber is not pressurized.....but under full travel of the metring plate, the upper chamber is widely connected to the lower chamber ......so the pressure in lower chamber is also not presurised.... As the differentiel pressure is close to 0, the spring of the valve is bending the diapraghm, then fuel flow can go out .....as the working pressure is much lower, the fuel flow is higher !


If you replace the stock injector by injector with less restriction and with lower opening pressure ..... you will simply get more fuel volume !
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Old 07-04-2009, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WinRice View Post

The Bosch K-Jet manual shows the injectors pop open around 3.5 bar,!
Yes that's right they are supposed to open around 3.5 bar......at free flow !

Now , when they are plugged to the engine at WOT condition and under 1 bar of boost ( 2 bar of absolute pressure) , are you sure they will open at 3.5 bar ? How about the flowed fuel ........
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Old 07-04-2009, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Thierry25 View Post
Yes that's right they are supposed to open around 3.5 bar......at free flow !

Now , when they are plugged to the engine at WOT condition and under 1 bar of boost ( 2 bar of absolute pressure) , are you sure they will open at 3.5 bar ? How about the flowed fuel ........
Good point!

If we have a perfect set of injectors that 'pop' at 3.5 bar above atmospheric (4.5 bar absolute at sea level), then under 1 bar of boost pressure (2 bar absolute) they would 'pop' at 4.5 bar (5.5 bar absolute).

That's probably the reason our Turbos have a system pressure of 6.9-7.1 bar, where a NA CIS 911SC runs 4.7-4.9 bar. Also the reason we have dual pumps.
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Old 07-04-2009, 10:04 PM
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Here is a general diagram of the CIS.

Fuel supply is in blue colour
Return line is in green
Injector line is in red
Dashed blue is the part of fuel flow which is used to supply the WUR and lambda freq valve ( return to tank after using)








As can be seen , the frequency valve and the Wur take their fuel from inside the head. So the lambda freq fuel flow rate and the Wur fuel flow rate must be taken in account for the global fuel flow calculation !


In the worskshop manual, Porsche gives the min rated fuel flow at 1.5 lit/ 30 sec . But this specification is given under free air flow !!!!

Under 6.8 bar of pressure, it is reasonnable to think that the rated flow will be about 20 or 30 less.....so it will provide about 1.2 Lit /30sec only.

On WOT , at full boost, ( metering plate is fully moved)

- the WUR ( CP= 2.9 bar) return a fuel flow which is equal to about 0.2 Lit / 30 sec
- the lambda freq is triggered at 50% duty cycle and it return a fuel flow which can be estimated to nearly the same value 0.150 lit / 30 sec


So the total maximum available fuel flow for the 6 injector will be equal to 0.8 to 0.9 liter/ 30 sec only !!!! It means 130 to 150 ml / 30 sec maximum for each injector.... STUP get only 125 ml / injector at free flow... my estimation is not so far.
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Old 07-06-2009, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thierry25 View Post
As can be seen , the frequency valve and the Wur take their fuel from inside the head. So the lambda freq fuel flow rate and the Wur fuel flow rate must be taken in account for the global fuel flow calculation !
Thierry,

I think we're saying the same thing in two different ways.

1. In the original discussion I was talking about total fuel in and out of the head. The fuel supplied by the pumps goes to the head where it is bypassed by your FV, Lambda FV and primary pressure regulator back to the return line to the tank. In other words, if the injectors are not flowing, all fuel in equals all fuel out. What I call 'Part one' of the head.

2. If we look at the fuel flow available to the injectors, it's a different story, what I call 'Part two'. The fuel available to the injectors is the total flow controlled by the primary pressure regulator, subtracting out the bypassed flow through your FV, lambda FV and WUR.

So yes, I agree, the flow available at the injector is the 'net' flow after the bypass losses. The flow in the return line is equal to the flow supplied, since all the control elements bypass back to the return line.

I hope that clears things up.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:56 PM
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Just a point on what power level a euro spec 964 turbo 3.3 turbo potentially can acheive with standard cis injection fuel flow....
It should be noted my test results(fuel volume) were with me manualy holding down the meter plate fully...As it has been mentioned previously though the meter plate stalls at does not open fully when in normal functioning operation(i.e floored throttle pedal)....,My cars standard fuel pumps/injectors etc still acheived a conservative figure of 401 bhp at the rear wheels(450+ fly) This is obviously with then LESS than 125ml per 30secs as this volume was with plate manually held open fully.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:32 PM
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Not sure what you are saying.

Are you saying that with the metering plate pushed down you obtained a given quanity of fuel. Then you were able to use that quanity to calulate that it will support up to 401rwhp?
Old 07-06-2009, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911st View Post
Not sure what you are saying.

Are you saying that with the metering plate pushed down you obtained a given quanity of fuel. Then you were able to use that quanity to calulate that it will support up to 401rwhp?
Basically just stating that recently my car made that power(401rwhp) with less fuel than the 125ml per 30 secs i recorded in my test results...(meter plate was not fully open during power run to acheive 125ml per 30 secs)

Just stating the fact that there was more than enough fuel to support over 400 rwhp in my case (euro 92 3.3 turbo) with more in reserve if need be!

Standard fuel pumps,fuel lines,injectors etc
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Old 07-06-2009, 05:52 PM
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I think I get it, thank you.

At that HP level if you wished could you keep your AFR's at about 12/1 at 6500rpm and still have some fuel capacity remaining?
Old 07-06-2009, 06:38 PM
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