Motronic or not??

[F350Lawman]

Well the conversion from street car to track car got sidetracked. We started in the fall and then I tore up my shoulder (need surgery and rehab) playing in a racquetball tourney so the rush to get the car done was gone. So far my the entire interior is removed as well as the engine/tranny and the full cage is in.

I was planning on going with CIS, a small bump in compression, bigger turbo, cams, porting, twin plug, etc. as so many others have done with a goal of 400WHP. My mechanic threw my a curve the other day and asked how I felt about installing a complete 3.6 Motronic EFI setup that he has in the shop.

What do you think? What are the benefits and negatives? If you did this, what challenges did you face and how did you overcome them?


Thanks

[equality72521]

I've been wondering about this same thing for a while now. I can't wait to hear from the pros on here.

[onboost]

One question might be what does your mechanic mean by complete 3.6 Motronic EFI setup? Is this Inclusive of ECU, harness, full injection sys, etc.. and other ancillary pieces.. ? If so it might be a deal in comparison to what some of the aftermarket stand-alone systems cost

I've been back and forth on this for awhile regarding the build for a spare motor I have and the benefit I see is that a lot of guess work and snafu is gone by using the factory stuff.

- You don't have to make a harness, just modify whats there for the vehicle and application
- proper sensors and pick-ups should already be there but may need customizing for the particular application.
- install it just like it came out for the most part
- Biggest issue will be tuning the ECU, however Protomotive has done it for years

I have also seen a car where the Motronic harness etc.. was used but adapted to an aftermarket ECU.

Just my 02 cents worth.. I'm sure there are others here that know more about this and will chime in..

Paul

[F350Lawman]

One question might be what does your mechanic mean by complete 3.6 Motronic EFI setup? Is this Inclusive of ECU, harness, full injection sys, etc.. and other ancillary pieces.. ? If so it might be a deal in comparison to what some of the aftermarket stand-alone systems cost


All the bits and pieces are there, we have a source the ECU and are working on the harness, in case we go forward in this direction.

What do you guys think about the performance and tuning potential as opposed to the CIS.

I know the cost is always a factor, but I was thinking selling off my complete CIS setup might help.

[mb911]

There is allot of info on Motronic so ideally very easy to mod later I woulguess protomotive would be worth a call

[Speedy Squirrel]

What year is the 3.6?

Since it has motronic I gather it is a non-turbo motor, or ...?

The M64/50 3.6 turbo (93 to 94) was still k-jetronic. If it is the M64/60 twin turbo (95 to 98), that would be total scorched earth, surrender or die, 400HP without mods to the engine. Everything else would be a tear-up though (oil system, back valance, exhaust).

If it is an N/A motor, it is not such a great starting point, in my view. I you want Motronic, just go buy one from a used parts dealer, and put it on what you've got.

I have used the motronic basic wiring harness, fuel rails, plumbing, and ignition with an AEM engine controller. I prefer to add a TPS and a 2 bar map sensor to replace the flapper door air mass meter, but all the other stuff comes in handy. Replacing the ECU connector is tedious, but doable. The big difference is that the Motronic is chip based (no EEPROM), so you can't tune on the fly without an EEPROM emulator, which is pricey. The AEM, and most other aftermarket controllers, have EEPROM, so tuning is easier.

[Fast951]

Switching from CIS to Motronic is well worth the effort. However, why go with the 3.6L Motronic vs. the 3.2L Motronic?
Both systems, in stock form, use the AFM (Vane Air Meter), which will be maxed out on a 930. So you will need to convert to a MAF or MAP based system. Or ideally a system that uses Both the MAF and the MAP sensors. MAF is great to keep correct AFR, MAP is used mainly for ignition (on top of MAF).

I converted a few from CIS to a 3.2L Motronic (MAF+MAP based), I'm converting my personal 930 as well. Also converted a 964 to a twin turbo. I also converted a CIS to a stand alone.

With the Motronic, you can use external devices (PiggyBacks) to alter fuel and ignition over what is on the chip.

Cost is a big factor. If you already have the Motronic Harness and DME, then going Motronic makes sense. However if you are starting from scratch, you might want to consider a standalone. A good Motronic Harness and DME are fairly expensive.

Regardless which system you go with. Set your requirements from the start. Whichever system you go with, look at the support you will be getting. The best system will not function properly unless installed correctly and has a good reliable support structure behind it.

Feel free to drop me a note if you have any questions.

[911st]

I suspect that if the car was already Motronic it would make sense to stay with it and install a turbo.

To go to the work to install it, then to do the mods needed, add the FMU, buy a chip, and go throut the set up, why not just step up to an aftermarket EFI system than can run a Throttle Position Sensor for faster throttle response and run as a Mass Air Pressure system so yiou have not intake restrictions at all.

Now, if he had a Motronics off a 944Turbo that might be something to look at but still would not be as strong as an aftermarket set up.

Just my thoughs.

If you stay with CIS, don't get to hung up on peak HP. 400rwhp is 470fwhp, that is almost to much for the thermal reserve of a 930 motor that will be tracked anyway.

Go for a usable HP range that matches your gears and you will have a faster for drivable car that will last longer.

[F350Lawman]

it is just a thought at this point. I had things pretty much figured out and then the delay and my injury gave me too much idle time.....not a good thing I am just looking at all my options. If the Motronic makes sense on my 930 fine, if not I'll max out the CIS and be done.

True aftermarket EFI was not my plan, this just came up and I am exploring it as another option.

[911st]

Thinking out loud and trying to make a case for it.

If you can get it for free, you could get with Protomotove. He will converet it for about $2k to a pressure sensing system that uses a TPS. He gives you a chip that should be close and a program so you can burn your own chips.

On top of that you will have a lot of plumbing to do.

There is a company that makes a conversion kit for EFI from CIS that works with your stock manfold and IC.

You have a pretty nice set up. Just set you boost at .9 bar and dial in your AFR's and enjoy it. That should get you to about 380 maybe 400 fwhp which is about the max for your turbo and CIS.

If you are going to track it, I like the K27-7006. It has the same fast acting compressor wheel but a bit larger hot side for less back pressure, increased effency on the track, and a solid 400fwhp. Might cost you 200rpm +/- of boost response though.

Just what I belive, check with the other experts.

[gsmith660]

Unless he is giving you a great price on the motronic system, the system out there that has the biggest bang for the buck is the Bitz system, especially now with megatune extra that gives you a 12X12 VE table and is infinately adjustable. Mine was already programmed right out of the box and the car started right up replacment component are not as costly as the motronic stuff and the support network is excellent. Mine is on a 2.7 turbo motor right now but will all transfer to a 3.2 later with only tuning issues to handle and with the datalogging feature and megalogviewer software that will/should nothing more than a few runs on the highway and I plan on using a iphone app. called dynolicous to help on the tuning (since I have no dyno within 70 miles of me). Its worth giving it some thought.

[F350Lawman]

Yes that Bitz system looks nice with a 3.2 intake and heads. I am really still open to anything, as this year is a lost cause so I have more options. Should know shortly what I broke on the motor besides rings and then the fun will really begin.

Car is home now, sitting in my trailer minus the motor and tranny....it's like a sick friend

[patkeefe]

Is the 3.6 motronic a full sequential injection system, or is it left bank/right bank? I would give it serious consideration it if its sequential.

Rotator cuff? Had that too, three months rehab. And, the roll cage looks good in the tub, BTW.

[F350Lawman]

Originally Posted by patkeefe

Is the 3.6 motronic a full sequential injection system, or is it left bank/right bank? I would give it serious consideration it if its sequential.

Rotator cuff? Had that too, three months rehab. And, the roll cage looks good in the tub, BTW.

Yeah we just thought about the 3.6 system and are in the "research phase". That is why I asked for the input from others. This board has been helpful with all the changes I made since buying the car 3 years ago, so figured I'd go to the well once more. Got advice and copied much from A930Rocket, Craig 930 RS, BrianKSmith and RarlyL8 among others. Car was pretty quick and stuck well, so I think it will be a monster after this rebuild and a few extras.

Thanks, I also like the way the DAS cage fits. Now we just have to finish the rest of the stripped interior in the Wurthe undercoating, install the fire system and containment seats I ordered, and it will start looking like something. Guess I could always "Fred Flinstone" it around town with footpower until the engine is done

Yeah, I tore labrum and greatly worsened an already torn rotator cuff. Delayed surgery because I have too much to do around the property in the warm weather to be in a sling for a month. Shooting for Sept 1st surgery. How did yours come out?

[TurboKraft]

All 3.6L Motronic are sequential injection.
The 964 has the restrictive "barn door" airflow sensor, and really ought to be upgraded to a MAF (ala 993) or pressure sensing (MAP sensor) in order to have a clean, reliable load signal throughout the RPM range.
Of course, by the time you convert to pressure sensing, you're pretty much at the cost of a really, really good aftermarket ECU that's 100% programmable. We're huge advocates of the AEM engine management system, and you can modify the original 964 & 993 harnesses to work with the AEM computer.

When you have a stand-alone ECU there's other advantages:
* you're not tied to a handful of tuners who can fully re-program an older Motronic computer (or burn chips)
* you can use the ECU's 3D integrate boost mapping (wastegate control)
* you'll have the ability to tune it to your driving style, ex: throttle sensitivity, fuel economy, etc.
* you'll usually end up with better power & torque than with a chip (whose program is usually for an engine pretty close to yours, but not the same...)

We just re-did another builder's 964 to Twin Turbo conversion that made a claimed 600hp at 1.3bar. It had the full pressure sensing conversion. We pulled that out during the rebuild and converted it to AEM with twin Lambdas, boost control, and full knock control. We also converted it to 3.8L (and lower compression) plus GT2 cams (vs. 964). Output to all 4 wheels on a Dynapack chassis dyno:
* 550.7hp @ 5,931rpm / 539.5tq @ 4,583rpm / 1.1bar boost, 91-octane
* 657.4hp @ 6,021rpm / 650.8tq @ 4,816rpm / 1.3bar, 104-octane
(what's available at his local track)
Most of the gains came from efficiencies in the programming, not the marginal increase in displacement or the cams. Knock sensors were tested twice, silent during all pulls.
The car's a pussycat in stop-and-go driving, never comes close to stalling with lightweight flywheel & clutch, no weird drivability issues, idles at 850rpm.
Programmable EFI is the way to go!

[TurboKraft]

Last thing about adapting the 964/993 Motronic (or any EFI) to your 930:
2 ways to go with the manifolds
1) 930 manifold with EFI injector blocks
Then typical sensors & adapters with TPS, IAT, CLT (head temp), and REF (flywheel, and we can machine yours). We make & sell all of these, as do some other vendors. You'll need to have a SYNCH (cam speed) pickup in the distributor or off the back of the cam -- that's a bit of work if using the stock Motronic ECU (have to synch it exactly), or easy with programmable EFI.
2) Motronic manifold
Have to add adapters to convert from your 32mm ported 2-bolt heads to the ~42mm 964/993 injector bases, or, use custom 2-bolt injector bases. (We have both solutions.)
But you'll also have to make an adapter throttle cable and play with the linkage to get proper actuation and WOT, plus re-fabricate the back of your intercooler to route to the throttle body, plus make new IC mounts, maybe a new turbo to IC charge pipe, and still adapt the sensors as above.

The 2nd option has a lot more visual appeal and makes bigger numbers at high boost with big cams. The 1st option in simpler -- you reuse the major pieces you have like the intercooler -- and the throttle response is with the small manifold volume. We've built many 500+rwhp 911 Turbos with flat 930 manifolds, so it won't hold you back in the power department:
* 417rwhp / 418rwtq, 3.3L, stock heads & cams, headers, turbo, cat-bypass, intercooler, 91-octane,
* 468rwhp / 430rwtq, EFI + usual bolt-ons (headers, muffler, intercooler, cams), stock 32mm heads & manifold, 91-octane
* 516rwhp / 457rwtq, EFI, ported + bolt-ons, 91-octane
* 580hp/556tq, EFI, ported + bolt-ons, 100-octane
* 595hp/516tq, EFI, ported + bolt-ons, 100-octane

[wjfk32]

Greetings:
On the BITZRACING-web site...It says u can't use the system on a 930. Does anyone know a solution..Very interested...Not sure where to start.

Thnxs

Walt

[911st]

Cris,

Can the AEM work with a 3.2 wire harness?
Thx.

[gsmith660]

Originally Posted by wjfk32

Greetings:
On the BITZRACING-web site...It says u can't use the system on a 930. Does anyone know a solution..Very interested...Not sure where to start.

Thnxs

Walt

The only issue I know of is the adaption of the fuel rails to the 930 manifold, Paul dornburg on the bitz yahoo group just sucessfully did that to his 930 manifold. If you get brave enough I have a 930 manifold and the injector blocks that I got a long time ago that would clean up nice, if you would not like to alter your manifold.

[wjfk32]

Greetings:

Do you have any pics. of the manifold???
Any machining involved if doing it on my own???
P. Dornburg have an e-mail address..

Sorry, for the questioning.

Thnxs
Walt