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7.0:1 > 11.3:1
 
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Nice work you've done there! Consider posting more details about your car.
Old 10-18-2009, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by boeingone View Post



Thought I would chime in on the intercooler thing. A few more pics for you viewing pleasure.

I am in the process of modifying this Blown 6 intercooler to work with my EFI conversion. It has cast end tanks. My intake is a 3.2 normally aspirated manifold with a cut and rotated Throttle body. I was trying to avoid turns and tubing length.
Many hours spent forming/fitting the inlet and outlet for this.

This is exactly what I was asking about.. no one seems to set-up the full bay ICs in this manner, only the 1/2 bay.. Koklen, Garretson/Andial etc..

Nice work!! Looks like you have a lot of fab time in as I didn't immediately recognize this as Blown 6.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:18 AM
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RarlyL8, I think you should come up with your own intercooler after you are done with your headers project. We need a custom job on this item.
We are working on it as a matter of fact. Too many projects is slowing progress. Headers must come first as orders have been taken and production has begun.
What we plan to offer is a 1/2 bay unit similar to the old B&B. We are using the stock intercooler as the format and standard for fitment. Price will be affordable.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 10-18-2009, 12:00 PM
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Sweet!

What are you doing for a TPS?
Old 10-18-2009, 12:21 PM
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Brian (Rarly8), can't wait to see what you will come up with for your intercooler design. You do good work and I'm glad you offer great products for the money.

Onboost, that is a nice modification to the B6.
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1981 black 930 with full 1st gen Gemballa bumpers kit. RUF classic wheels. Modification include: Mode Inc. (Bob Holcombe) full bay intercooler, headers, turbo, and muffler. 360RWHP.
Old 10-18-2009, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dai View Post
I know it was a mistake to post pictures on here. I don't care too much about the technical side of the design. I like the intercooler and yes it was a stupid amount of money but whatever Bob design, I trust his experience and knowledge.
I beg your pardon! I don't wanted to affect you or your IC. We all appreciate you posted your beautiful IC here.

As it is a technical forum, we all like to discuss some facts, thinkings etc... That's why most of us are here, it's should never be against anybody. Of course, never all think the same about a thing and that's why a thread goes on and on.

The goal is to get the information you need to create your personal dream set-up and have an idea, what others think and made. I am sure, everybody here respects the meaning of the other, even he don't think the same. Otherwise we all had the same car

So don't care and enjoy this gorgeous forum
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:35 AM
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The Protomotive is reputed to be over 90% effecent. I believe that is due to the core used and it's wide shallow design.

If I were going to copy a design it would be my target. Its end tanks are now where as nice as the Mode but they seem to work very well.

Some one should get with Bell Intercoolers (BIC) and try set a product similar to this. (hint, hint Mister B.)


Old 10-19-2009, 07:37 AM
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Secan make the best intercooler cores in the world, also the most expensive! For their intercoolers they guarantee to keep the charge air within 20-degrees of ambient.

I have no idea what 90% efficiency equates to? But as i said, if you can get anywhere near what Secan can do you are on the right track. The only way to test this is to have a sensor reading temp after the intercooler along with a sensor reading ambient.

Definitely large surface area and thin cores are what you are looking for in a design for our engine, as has been mentioned we couldn't have a worse place to put the damned thing, so efficiency is paramount!

Some pics of Secan coolers, note the thickness and how compact the cores look, these things cost 20k or $35k..... Big money!! But they did exactly what they said they would do





This a 993tt road version using Secan cores, a close up shot for you




I have no idea what cores are used on this, but it was up for sale recently and it looked quite nice for a single turbo cooler, did anyone here buy it?





I really like that MODE cooler, would be nice to see how efficient it actually is, but without some data you will never know which is a shame.......
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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
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Old 10-19-2009, 08:57 AM
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I remember this cooler being for sale on ebay.. I also remember many people bashing it as to what a poor design it was.. believe someone comented on it beign too thin!

I thought it was an interesting design but saw no data as to its orign or manufacturer.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by 911st View Post
The Protomotive is reputed to be over 90% effecent. I believe that is due to the core used and it's wide shallow design.

Have always liked the Protomotive design and would love to get my hands on one.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:35 AM
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WOW, $35k for Secan cooler? Now, I don't feel so guilty spending for mine. It is interesting how many different designs and opinions on how intercooler should be.
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1981 black 930 with full 1st gen Gemballa bumpers kit. RUF classic wheels. Modification include: Mode Inc. (Bob Holcombe) full bay intercooler, headers, turbo, and muffler. 360RWHP.
Old 10-19-2009, 11:44 AM
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I have not looked into the cost of a Protomotive for years but I think they wanted something like $5k years ago.

With a thick core the top preheats the air as it passes on through thus the bottom section is not going to be as effective at removing heat. Thus, a thin core is expected to be more effective.

The total cross section of the core should be a function of how much air it can flow without undue restriction. One could use a 5" thick by 12" core for 60 sq inches of cross section if that supports there CFM goals or a 2.75" thick by 22" wide core and get 60 sq inches of core cross section instead. The 2.75" core, if all other factors are equal, should be more effective.

Also, I understand that the short run front to back makes for less pressure loss as the air cools and slows down over a longer run.

Note that both Mode and Protomotive use the widest IC design they can fit between the hinges and then probably use just a thick enough core to meet there CFM/pressure loss goals.

Efficiency I believe is taking the in/out temps of an IC and comparing them ambient. A 100% efficient IC would have the out coming air be at the ambient temp. An inter-cooler using ice for a cooling agent like some of the drag cars could be more than 100% efficient. Not totaly sure on the math.

Last edited by 911st; 10-19-2009 at 12:05 PM..
Old 10-19-2009, 12:01 PM
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The money in the Secan intercooler is the core, not in the manufacture of the end tanks, they are for aerospace use and therefore are mega money, and also mega efficient.
There is simply no other core available that performs the same, and Secan don't sell the cores to just anyone.
As i mentioned earlier, they guarantee to keep the air within 20-degrees of ambient, i doubt that even this would be classed as 90% efficiency? Anyone claiming better results than this is talking ****e!

I like the look of some of the blown6 coolers, but the cores do look very crude, it would be great to see some actual data between what is out there, but that's a tall order I guess.

To give you guys some idea of the bull **** that goes around, there has been a large 993tt replacement intercooler doing the rounds for years, here is a pic



I was about to get one for mine, even tried it on for size



Then i did some research and was told that RS Tuning tried one of these units and concluded that it was considerably worse than the stock item!


I would also think that the stock 964 turbo intercooler would out perform most of the aftermarket offerings!
Still would be lovely to know what cores MODE use
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87 930, 993 turbo engine, RS Tuning 520PS/515lbf-ft, Arrow Rods, ARP hardware, Solid lifters, G50-50, RS Flywheel, 890nm Sachs clutch, RSR coil overs all round, 993 C4 calipers front, 930 fronts on the rear, Ruf Speedlines.....
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Old 10-19-2009, 12:55 PM
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I suspect that sometimes a larger IC dose not help with the temps but may reduce air flow restriction. If the IC is not a restriction there would be no gain, it could hurt spool time and or have other impacts.

I suspect for most CIS 3.3T's the blown-6 is on the large side but do not know that for sure.

I love the 91-94 C2 Turbo IC. I think it is as good in may was as any of the aftermarket units but do not know if it is vastly superior or even a significant improvement over any of them thought I would like to think so.

Porsche & Andial felt for some reason that they needed to put a larger core in them for there 1992 C2 Turbo when they targeted IMSA racing. Thus, they made the larger core intercooler part of there limited production S2 Turbo package along with cams & K27-7006 turbo when offered to the public to qualify it. Thus, Porsche/Andial saw a need for a built CIS 3.3 that probably made in the 400fwhp range to have a larger IC on there C2 Turbo based production race cars.

On the other hand, RUF seemed very happy to use it in its stock form on many of there single turbo EFI 3.6 conversion kits with some making in excess of 425hp I believe.

Still, it is a great IC and has what looks to be ideal end tank designs. Except for the exit tank return pipe, the Mode is mostly a pumped up adaption of the C2Turbo IC.

Last edited by 911st; 10-19-2009 at 01:36 PM..
Old 10-19-2009, 01:33 PM
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They have another for sale: PORSCHE 911 1978-1989 ALUMINIUM INTERCOOLER :eBay Motors (item 180382436593 end time Nov-10-09 13:29:12 PST)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL930 View Post
...I have no idea what cores are used on this, but it was up for sale recently and it looked quite nice for a single turbo cooler, did anyone here buy it?...

Last edited by A930Rocket; 10-19-2009 at 02:43 PM..
Old 10-19-2009, 02:40 PM
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Rocket..

That's the one that I was speaking of.. it's been for sale off & on for months.
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:11 PM
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With air to water it is possible to go well below ambient with ice. My system on the dyno with multiple back to back passes and very little fan pressure on my heat exchanger still always stays within 5 degrees of ambient after 6 back to back pulls It never gets any higher than ambient on most anything we have thrown at it. This is with a really large turbo too not a KKK unit. That is with straight tap water. It works even better on the street or track. Besides complexity, price, and some added weight air to water is the cats meow.
Old 10-19-2009, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JBL930 View Post

I have no idea what cores are used on this, but it was up for sale recently and it looked quite nice for a single turbo cooler, did anyone here buy it?

That is a MODE intercooler that uses Griffin cores.

The OP's intercooler uses a Bell core.
Old 10-26-2009, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by N2173Z View Post
That is a MODE intercooler that uses Griffin cores.

The OP's intercooler uses a Bell core.
Same cores Proto uses.
Old 10-26-2009, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by strokher racing View Post
Besides complexity, price, and some added weight air to water is the cats meow.
Hmmmm.....complexity, price and added weight - is that all Eric?
Old 10-26-2009, 06:25 PM
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