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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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What is this !! Never seen this problem before.

I'm an exhaust guy and know a bit about CIS but this is down right weird.

Two months ago I removed my engine to swap trannies. While the engine was out I did a list of maintenance items. One was to remove and check the fuel injectors.
When the engine went back in the car the tranny had a problem so out it came again. I swapped back the old tranny and put the engine back in. The engine ran OK for a bit and then started to degrade. Within 2 weeks it would hardly start.
I looked at everything I had done and could find nothing wrong. The decision was made to pull it for a 3rd time.
I pulled the engine this morning and nothing seem unusual, until this. After everything was unhooked and the jack was ready to go under the car I hear a loud drip drip drip on the cardboard. What the hell is THAT? It was not oil and cannot be water. It smelled like FUEL. I looked up and the drip appeared to be coming from cylinder #3 between the cylinder and head.
What can cause this??? Where is this leak coming from?
I finished pulling the engine and pulled the injector for #3. The spark plug was wet, the injector soaked and the cylinder looked wet from what I could see.
I tested the injector and it had a terrible spray pattern and leaked badly enough to not hold pressure. Apparently the injector I had just checked a month ago has now failed.

I took a picture of the leak. It is just right of the header primary circled in red.


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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-08-2009, 05:38 PM
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I don't think it's coming from between the cylinder and the head, that area is over to the left of the exhaust and it looks dry there.
Looks like maybe fuel or beer or something leaked out or got spashed while working on the motor and ran down the back edge of the cam tower and cylinder head area and gravity took it there.

was it gas?
Old 11-08-2009, 05:55 PM
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Smart quod bastardus
 
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Replace the injector and see if that fixes the problem before pulling the engine again. Anything is possible, a brand new part will sometimes fail right out of the box.
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1979 930 Turbo....3.4L, 7.5to1 comp, SC cams, B&B intercooler, Snow Perf water/meth injection, Rarlyl8 headers, Garret GTX turbo, 36mm ported intakes, Innovate Auxbox/LM-1, custom Manually Adjustable wastegate housing (0.8-1.1bar),--running 0.7bar max
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Old 11-08-2009, 06:20 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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The liquid appeared to come from between the head and the cam housing. It dripped about 4 huge drops then quit. Just came out of nowhere. The car has not been started in a week and the fuel lines were pulled this morning. I cannot verify that it was fuel but what else could it be?
I plan to pull that valve cover tomorrow evening and see what is in there.
That injector was about 10 years old. It is disturbing that the results of testing a few weeks ago were normal and now it is so bad. I'm used to see them fail slowly. I plan to inspect that injector and see if something is not stuck in the pental holding it open. I replaced it with another used injector that tested good.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-08-2009, 06:46 PM
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There is distant possibility that you hydro-locked the cylinder (due to hung injector) and pressed the fuel out trough the head/cylinder seam (there is no gasket on 930) when trying to start it.

Did you experience any lockup when trying to crank the engine?
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Old 11-08-2009, 11:25 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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I thought about that Goran. The last time I started the car it fired up as usual and acted OK for a few seconds and then beagan to quickly progressively get worse. I shut it off before it died. There was more exhaust fumes than normal. So you may be right and I came close to a hydro-lock (or more aptly a petro-lock).
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-09-2009, 03:49 AM
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Like Goran said +1. If it did have a hyd. lock, you could have easely bent a rod also. I sure Groan knows that as the old radial air craft engines had to be turned over slowly by hand to get the oil out of the bottom cylinders before starting them to prevent bending a rod upon starting. I had this happen on a alchol engine one time as a pump stuck, and bent a rod with just the starter. Good luck Brian.
Old 11-09-2009, 03:56 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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I don't think anything locked up but rather just a very leaky injector. I've never experienced this before but would think if a cylinder is locked the engine would die or at least resist reving. The engine did not resist reving but continued to run rough and progressively get worse which is why I shut it down. I'll pop the valve covers off this evening and see what I can see.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-09-2009, 05:23 AM
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If injector hung to such degree that pressure started lifting the head off the cylinder due to extra fuel on board then you can suffer "hydro lock" issues even without completely locking the engine.
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Old 11-09-2009, 07:07 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Would't that type of pressure bust a head bolt?
I also observed no raw fuel in the exhaust system, which I would also expect. No fuel in the oil either.
Can you (or anyone) describe what is typically seen when this happens and what damages occur to the engine? I assume the least that happens is scoring of a cylinder wall due to oil washed away. I want to look at other areas to see the extent/affect of this injector problem.
Thanks for the help!
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-09-2009, 07:31 AM
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Hey Brian,
I just had my injectors cleaned and checked for spray pattern. When re-installing them, I failed to get 1 feed line flair connection, properly tightened. When I fired her up it started leaking, not spraying or anything like that, it just quickly oozed out around the flair fitting, over the injector, over the injector block. Then the gas rapidly followed the cam housing gasket area and dripped off the very same spot you showed in your photo!
Could be your culprit.
Mark
Old 11-09-2009, 07:32 AM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Interesting. I did not observe any fuel residue up top but fuel evaporates pretty fast.
It was so odd that these drips occurred several days after the car last ran and they chose that point in time to drip out. There has been no hint of drip now that the engine is on the stand.
One ??? is that the fuel system was unhooked to remove the engine. I wonder if that sudden relief of fuel pressure had anything to do with it.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-09-2009, 08:31 AM
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Hey Brian,
Aren't mysterys fun? Just keep a fire extinguisher real handy with the pin pulled, next time you fire her up!
Mark
Old 11-09-2009, 08:51 AM
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Could you possible have a loose injector?

Maybe it was leaking fuel at the connection running down the side of the head and around to the bottom.

It might be worth a check.

Also I noticed that when tightening the injectors there is sort of a "spring back" effect when the injector line relaxes after being torqued.
Old 11-09-2009, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RarlyL8 View Post
Would't that type of pressure bust a head bolt?
When a cylinder hydro-locks, the rod will buckle, fail and ventilate the crankcase as it exits since the piston can only compress the liquid so far.
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Old 11-09-2009, 01:30 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Wow, don't want any part of that!
I don't think there is any real damage done. Plan to pull a few things apart this evening and take a look.
Yes I have an extinguisher in the garage and in the car. Hope I never have to use one.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-09-2009, 01:42 PM
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Damn Brian. You must be an expert at removing and installing the engine now

I hope you find the issue and have her fixed soon.
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:55 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Not something I ever wanted to get good at.

Tonight I pulled the plugs and the valve covers and had a look. All looks good with no outward signs of trouble. #3 cylinder is damp but not wet and certainly no fluid in there.
Tomorrow evening we'll re-verify the valves are adjusted properly and I'll buttin it back up and put it back in the car later in the week. God help me if there is still a problem that requires another engine pull. I'm out of ideas of what to check. The weather is so freakin' perfect here right now it hurts not to have my car!
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-09-2009, 07:11 PM
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Crotchety Old Bastard
 
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Thought I would update this thread.

I have not had much time to work on the car and am getting very frustrated with it being down. I simply do not have time to troubleshoot thoroughly and need a few good ideas to check.

Here is where I am now. The engine has been out and in 3 times. When I first took it out I changed the following:
> swapped trannies with one rebuilt with custom gears
> changed ignition cap/rotor/plug wires
> changed fuel filter
> removed fuel injectors and checked performance then ran mineral spirits through to clean them
> adjusted valves and added silcone gaskets
> installed new adjustable shocks

When I put the engine back in it ran a bit "cammy" but nothing serious. The rebuilt tranny was making a horrific noise in gears 1-4 (on the lift) so out the engine came to swap trannies.

I put the original tranny back on the engine and put the engine back in the car. The engine still ran "cammy" but good enough to test out the headers. I warmed the car up driving around the block and all was fine. The "cammy" roughness went away after 2000rpm.
So then it was time for a boost run. Got on the highway and in second gear then hit it. The thing ran like a scalded cat! Blew the tires in 2nd and I quickly shifted to 3rd and got off the gas.
When I got off the gas the car ran terrible.
Something let loose during the run. It shuddered and missed but continued to run until I got it home.
I checked everything I could think of:
> turbo up-pipe and intercooler O-rings. Good.
> plugs/wires/cap. Good
> injectors - PROBLEM. #3 cylinder (pictured above) was dripping fuel from below.

The rebuilt tranny was now re-rebuilt so I decided to take the engine out again and explore the fuel problem then swap trannies.

While the engine was out:
> I had a friend come over and verify the valve adjustment was OK. It was.
> Pulled injector #3 and tested it. Found it to be leaking badly with a bad spray pattern. This was the same injector I had previously cleaned and verified the pattern as good ?????
> Replaced injector #3 with another cleaned and verified good injector.
> Swapped trannies.

Still ran rough.
Much better than before but not good. Checked the engine and #3 was blowing fuel. Removed half the CIS off the top of the engine and fixed the leak.
Engine still ran rough. although better. Good enough to run the car through the gears on the lift and hear the wonderful sound of nothing coming from the tranny (problem was mis-aligned trust washer - thank you MBEngineering!)
Decided to swap out injectors 4-6 to see if maybe I screwed them up by cleaning them. #6 cylinder started blowing fuel. Had a hell of a time making it stop. These fuel lines haven't been cracked in 10 years and seem to be perticularly averse to fiddling.

So this is where I am. As a side bar to this mess I bought some CIS parts from a crook in Florida who never sent them. I back-charged my credit card a month later then bought an entire Euro CIS from an EFI converted car in CA with the plan to swap some parts.

ANY suggestions at this point are welcome. This has put me a month behind with the headers and heat exchangers. I REALLY want to find out what happened and fix it but have no more time to waste on this so may just swap complete CIS systems with the one coming from California.
This does seem to be fuel injector related and the engine now runs better without fuel spraying all over cylinder #3. I am leaning towards changing out all the injectors but dread fighting those leaking fuel lines.
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RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 11-29-2009, 03:18 PM
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My guess is it could it be fuel draining out from where you disconnected the fuel line and when things were jarred or moved it allowed additional fuel to then drain out. Could have come from the head or the accumulator.

The fuel leak is external so it should not be from an injector leaking down. That would be contained in the intake port, cylinder, and maybe make it to the exhaust tube. For it to make it to the outside you would have to have a very large existing oil leak.

Would suspect that an injector that is not holding pressure should not be able to dump enough fuel to hydro-lock a turbo cylinder unless some way the fuel pumps were kept running a long time without the motor running and the metering plate was depressed.

If there is a leak at the connection between the injector and the fuel line or the fuel line and the head, that could leak externally.
Old 11-29-2009, 03:59 PM
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