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Very interesting read. However, just to give this some perspective, when I read the first post I thought so what, another very expensive Porsche aftermarket product claiming a new elevated performance standard.

For the record we need to be reminded 35 years ago our pioneering Porsche engineers did:
1.4L Baby 935, 380@8000 (259HP/Liter)
2.1l Carrera RSR Turbo, 480HP@8,000rpm (228HP/Liter)

Granted these are gross HP levels and do not speak to throttle response however the implication this is a new performance level provided solely by this product’s design characteristics is untrue. This was done with MFI.

I’m not discounting the great impact EFI has on bringing drivability AND high HP to racing and street applications. My first impression is save your money, buy a cast off 3.6L N.A. manifold, adapt any other modern EFI system. You’d realize the benefits of Porsches 30 years of building throttle response and high HP in their air-cooled engine.

At the same time one must separate and give credit for the contribution of twin turbos over singles in discussions of configuring a responsive high power density engine. Here again engine performance characteristics favoring parallel twin turbos over single turbo were defined for these engines 24 years ago while Porsche tested systems intended for their 959 program. In this discussion we need to be reminded many sanctioning bodies limit turbo cars by specifying only ONE turbo can be installed. They do this knowing it effects the entire engine system.
Old 11-18-2009, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jpnovak View Post
First, let me clear up a few misconceptions.

ITBs do improve throttle response in NA and boosted applications. For NA this is done by providing equal intake tract lengths and plenum volumes. Equalizing the distribution across each cylinder builds power and provides balance to the air-flow. In boosted applications the throttle response comes from the location of the thottle plate relative to the intake valve. Remember the throttle acts as a pressure regulator of sorts. If the throttle is far from the intake valve there is a time lag to pressureize the volume between the throttle and valve. For a common plenum this can be substantial. For ITBs it can be greatly reduced adding to throttle response.

The addition of a common plenum style tract to ITBs is a secret of tuning. Porsche has done wonderful engineering to optimize the resonance tuning. Think V-ram at this point. You can take advantage of the Helmholtz Resonator Calculations for intake tuning and then the throttle bodies help throttle response. It is not hard to cut the lower section off a Carrera manifold and mount them to ITBs. In fact, it is even easier to do this using a 3.6 manifold. To quote Steve Weiner, "truly impressive gains" can be had.

Some high HP motors do suffer from low speed drivability. Some of this is due to tuning but usually it is due to equipment limitations. Large HP numbers require large flow injectors. These injectors have a finite limited open/close time usually around 1mS. They just flow too much fuel during that time to run clean at low rpm. The solution is stacked injectors (duel fuel rails) or low impedance injectors that control the transient response better for faster open/close response.

Placing injectors at the top of the intake tract behind the butterfly can help higher rpm and WOT response. The fuel simply has more time to atomize before being sucked into the combustion chamber.

I absolutely 100% disagree that mid range throttle response suffers with ITBs. It is greatly improved save the tuning on the car. The issue is transient response on throttle tip-in. When one changes the throttle position there is a momentary lean condition and a huge rush of air reaches the combustion chamber. Unless someone monitors this and compensates with extra fuel (not too much) the engine will have a lean stumble. This happens on a 100mS time scale and can easily be overcome with enrichment parameters on an EFI system. CIS has no hope here.

The cost and complexity of these systems is due to making sure every component is properly matched for volume, volumetric flow, flow velocity (cross sectional area of heads and intake) as well as turbo and intercooler setup and finally fuel delivery (EFI, ECU, timing). You can't just have one piece of the puzzle. However, when you have all the pieces of the puzzle you get staggering performance. PWR is a testament of that.

Yes, I saw the PWR 996 car (2.1l built on a 76 targa?) during one of its inaugural races at TWS. Yeah, it was fast.
Jamie, thanks (as always) for that concise summation of the 'physics' of ITB's. Much clearer to me now.

If i am understanding correctly, ITB's in a turbo application are extremely difficult to tune correctly, and if not done so, will result in major driveability issues (large injector issues nonwithstanding), whereas single plenum intakes are very simple for the DIY'er by comparison, and for all intents and purposes, will not really be the limiting factor in producing more power (as evidenced by Gabe's motor)

That being the case, is the advantage of ITB's mainly just in the obvious improved throttle response, or are ultimately large HP gains in a turbo'd flat-6 only to be found with ITB's and improve flow vs single plenum intakes?

Andy, what were the design advantages of the 962 style tanks over the ones you were previously using?
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Old 11-18-2009, 06:29 AM
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There is no question that a single throttle will have more pressure drop than individual throttles, and that individual thottles minimize the vacuum depressurized volume. This yields maximum power and response potential. You can forget the Helmholtz tuning because if you run the numbers you will see that you need some long runners to get any low speed improvement. Filling those long runners, regardless of throttle choice harms response more than the tuning helps. Also, when the throttle is open, the intercooler tanks act as a connected plenum, further reducing the pressure gain.
All this leads to small plenums connected to short itb's, ala 962.
You can Jack up any arrangement trying to control too much fuel with only 6 injectors, so observe the 9 gm/s rule.
Old 11-18-2009, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by copbait73 View Post
Very interesting read. However, just to give this some perspective, when I read the first post I thought so what, another very expensive Porsche aftermarket product claiming a new elevated performance standard.

For the record we need to be reminded 35 years ago our pioneering Porsche engineers did:
1.4L Baby 935, 380@8000 (259HP/Liter)
2.1l Carrera RSR Turbo, 480HP@8,000rpm (228HP/Liter)

Granted these are gross HP levels and do not speak to throttle response however the implication this is a new performance level provided solely by this product’s design characteristics is untrue. This was done with MFI.

I’m not discounting the great impact EFI has on bringing drivability AND high HP to racing and street applications. My first impression is save your money, buy a cast off 3.6L N.A. manifold, adapt any other modern EFI system. You’d realize the benefits of Porsches 30 years of building throttle response and high HP in their air-cooled engine.

At the same time one must separate and give credit for the contribution of twin turbos over singles in discussions of configuring a responsive high power density engine. Here again engine performance characteristics favoring parallel twin turbos over single turbo were defined for these engines 24 years ago while Porsche tested systems intended for their 959 program. In this discussion we need to be reminded many sanctioning bodies limit turbo cars by specifying only ONE turbo can be installed. They do this knowing it effects the entire engine system.
Copbait, sorry, didnt mean to imply that the guys at PWR were doing anything revolutionary, just that they were building very reliable, high HP TT motors using ITB's as one of the elements. ITB's and dual bank intake manifolds are elements that don't seem to get much attention from guys here and elsewhere doing high HP builds. The focus seem to be on factors such as displacement, turbo selection, EFI, etc, with it almost a foregone conclusion that some form of single plenum intake will be used.

As i mentioned earlier, what the factory did back in the 70's with MFI and high specific output motors was nothing short of incredible. The fact that PWR is using the same designs sans MFI to achieve similar high and very reliable specific outputs is very cool.
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:16 AM
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It always amazes me to see people having a tough time with ITB's. It has always been a problem for many people to run engines with poor low speed velocity and get good response with ITB's. Understand that when using an engine with small displacement, the fuel cannot atomize and accel the engine if there is no velocity going to the ports. This senario in a small displacement engine with big ports, big valves, big ITB's, big cams and all trying to get to the powerband the car was intended to get to. This engine is basically a not gonna go anywhere til the car has some speed and the powerband is usable. This would be a perfect big track, in a feather weight car engine. In a short sprint course you might as well sit there and and just hold the steering wheel. Now that EFI has been affordable and used commonly the pressurized fuel injectors aide to atomize the fuel and help a little to get these little watch winders to ramp up a little faster. These engines were to fit a certain class and make the most power and still fit into the confines of the class.
Another problem with with ITB's is what I like to call the bigger is better why not go even bigger! syndrome. If you go too big on the size of the ITB it will hurt the port velocity as well. If you take the area of a single 80mm TB the area is about 7.75 and then take the area of 6 46mm ITBs it is about 15.42 that is more than double even 40mm is 11.61. ITB's come typically 40mm through 54mm for Porsche. If you put a set of 54mm on a turbo car and it is built for sprint then you just went backwards. If you are still running low compression ratios below 7.5 don't waste your time with ITB's you will suffer down low. It all depends on your build. Gabe's 3.8 will not have a problem with running ITB's as long as you keep them at a reasonable size, even running 40's there is still a sizable difference. The key when setting them up is to fire the engine with the ITB's open and equal all cylinders. Once that is done then there is only two adjustments. Linkage to the left bank and linkage to the right PERIOD............................................ ..... And also ITB's once sync'd they don't go out of sync unless something came loose. Once adjusted and tight that is it.

I run 96 lb injectors, (Sequential is a must)
13.5 AFR's is the lowest I can get it to run without losing injector control at idle
I run 8° at idle
my cars idles smooth and trouble free
starts on a dime, regardless what temp or how long it has been running
has zero driveability issues
On a side note the 96 lb injectors are good to support 1200HP I have been using them for a long time on different builds. On my car It can be turned up to that but it is not my goal to make that much power. My goal was to have the best all around power. It makes a little over 700 @1.5, that is more than enough for me. I usually keep it around 1.1-1.2 bar
It is all about matching components and having a proper tune.
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Last edited by GJF; 11-18-2009 at 12:09 PM.. Reason: edit
Old 11-18-2009, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
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It is all about matching components and having a proper tune.
This is gospel.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:11 PM
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Also just FYI on a single TB for every 5mm increase it typically will net you 50HP.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:13 PM
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[QUOTE=kenikh;5018772]This is gospel.[/QUOTE

You don't agree?
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
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Also just FYI on a single TB for every 5mm increase it typically will net you 50HP.
As long as you can maintain intake charge velocity.

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenikh View Post
This is gospel.
You don't agree?
100% agree - this is the special sauce too many engine builders forget.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
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As long as you can maintain intake charge velocity.



100% agree - this is the special sauce too many engine builders forget.
Preach on brotha!!! Special Sauce,... I like that!!
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:25 PM
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[QUOTE=GJF;5018801]Preach on brotha!!! Special Sauce,... I like that!![/QUOTE I have Motec 48 with a 3.5 motor by Norwood that sounds like a similar build ( see earlier posts for tune issues). The car is in Milwaukee now. Anyone you or others might recommend nearby that can dial it in the rest of the way. Last tuner was Sam @ ProtechniK in Houston when it had 83# injecters. Now to 96# but was over 105 degrees when he partially redid the dyno tune. I have a local Porsche race shop that does some race turbo tuning but this cars set up would be new for him.




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Old 11-18-2009, 01:52 PM
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Justin,

We had a difficult time with the intake manifolds busting at the welds. We would split the manifolds and have to weld after every session. This cost me several race wins

The solution was a "962" style tank that was hammered (by a metal working genius) over a mold in thick aluminum. I cannot recall the gauge, but they were fairly heavy. They were made in halves and were simply welded together. This eliminated additional welded seams, and worked for several years.

I should have some more pics somewhere.

BTW, my new water motor puts down 695rwhp and 705rwtq at 1 bar with a 75mm throttle body. At 1.5 we saw 919rwhp (right before the head gasket blew, ha ha.)

Andy

Last edited by mcneil141; 11-18-2009 at 02:04 PM..
Old 11-18-2009, 02:00 PM
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GJF, thanks brother - good to hear from you. My ITBs are TWMs, can't remember the size off the top of my head but they're sized for a 3.8. I just don't want to go backwards from the 3.6 manifold but I need the area clear for a certain tasty piece of round goodness to sit inbetween the intake ports hehehehe.

Furthermore - what you said is refreshing to hear and I know its true coming from your background and beautiful jewel of a motor. I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

Andy - you're fcuking insane brother...
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:49 PM
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This is a very informative thread and I wonder what role Slide valve throttle bodies have in making power and how drivable these can be as it relates to this ITB conversation??
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:29 AM
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Slides will work just fine. Another problem people have when trying to run ITB's (slides included) on the street is that the throttle is 1:1 with the gas pedal. A cam follower needs to be used so the part throttle is more gradual. Meaning when all 6 ITBs are opening at the same part throttle position as the gas pedal was with a single throttlebody the acceleration curve is too touchy. By using a cam follower linkage, a custom cam can be made to increase or decrease the duration of the throttle. This would allow the engine to have good low speed drivability by having a moderate actuation of the ITB's from idle to the desired point.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voitureltd View Post
I have Motec 48 with a 3.5 motor by Norwood that sounds like a similar build ( see earlier posts for tune issues). The car is in Milwaukee now. Anyone you or others might recommend nearby that can dial it in the rest of the way. Last tuner was Sam @ ProtechniK in Houston when it had 83# injecters. Now to 96# but was over 105 degrees when he partially redid the dyno tune. I have a local Porsche race shop that does some race turbo tunibg but do not want to reinvent the wheel as this cars set up would be new for him.
Tony,
Locally, try CS Motorsports (cs motorsports link, a Porsche restorer/friend has heard good things about them.
Other option: My friend's racing engine(PCA GTP 1) is sent down to Bob Holcomb, Scottsdale for engine dyno tuning.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:40 AM
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Anyone have experience with this ITB setup?
Extrudabody: Performance Fuel Injection Homepage
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by pkracer21j View Post
For driveability would it be better to have such a large injector mounted above the butterfly in more of a shower configuration? Ducati went to shower injectors on their S and R models years ago to improve atomization of the fuel due to having to run larger injectors.
Bruce Anderson's latest edition of the 911 Performance Manual mentioned Jerry Wood's having great success with this configuration on ITB's.
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:56 AM
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Jerry, thanks so much for you input on this. BTW, your injector advice about this time last year was perfect, as the 930/4 has been running great since.

BTW, what's it going to take to get all this 700hp porn of your's to our next turbopalooza?????



Why did you choose to go with your modified 3.2 manifold on your 3.4 vs ITB's?

PS - Tony, the same goes for you and turbopalooza.... ITB's AND A/C

PS - Gabe, are these your ITB's and manifolds? If so, what did they come off of? Any worry that you may have the same issues as Andy?


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Last edited by juicersr; 11-19-2009 at 07:15 AM..
Old 11-19-2009, 07:13 AM
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Why did you choose to go with your modified 3.2 manifold on your 3.4 vs ITB's?

I had been experimenting with sheet metal manifolds and decided to build a one off manifold with longer and larger runners, and resize the plenums to match the displacement of the engine. Then I got a little creative and took the top section of a 3.2 manifold and grafted it to the top of my partial sheet metal manifold. So in half truth it is a 3.2 manifold but then again it isn't. Mark at Hargett Precision Products has been working on some billet ITB's and promises me a set when they are done but I know it is still a on going development.

BTW, what's it going to take to get all this 700hp porn of your's to our next turbopalooza?????

I really want to go we are looking to see if time will allow
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:58 AM
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