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Do you have any pics of the sheet metal manifold you are working on? I am getting ready to start work on one of those too.
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:08 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJF View Post
Slides will work just fine. Another problem people have when trying to run ITB's (slides included) on the street is that the throttle is 1:1 with the gas pedal. A cam follower needs to be used so the part throttle is more gradual. Meaning when all 6 ITBs are opening at the same part throttle position as the gas pedal was with a single throttlebody the acceleration curve is too touchy. By using a cam follower linkage, a custom cam can be made to increase or decrease the duration of the throttle. This would allow the engine to have good low speed drivability by having a moderate actuation of the ITB's from idle to the desired point.
I did a search for cam followers and didn't find anything that pertains to ITB's or Throttlebodies for that matter. I am hoping you could elaborate a little on what a cam follower would look like.
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Old 11-19-2009, 02:52 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
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like the throttle cam on a 944, or the cam on the end of a row of ITB's on a sport bike. starts out as a gradual radius and tightens up towards the end of rotation. ex. decreasing radius turn.
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Old 11-19-2009, 03:00 PM
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Exactly pkracer21j.

I usually make them, I will try to find a pic from my shop tomorrow.


sprbxr: I built it as a experiment, I wasn't too sure it would work as well as it does. It is simple and it works but if I had to do it again I would just run ITB's. it was alot of work! I will see if I have any fab pics.
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Old 11-19-2009, 03:34 PM
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Yup those are my ITBs alright - got them from a guy running the setup on a 700 hp 3.8tt setup. Don't forsee any plenum issues, as I won't be running it like Andy was, however i'm sure we'll redesign and tweek them if needed.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper930 View Post
Yup those are my ITBs alright - got them from a guy running the setup on a 700 hp 3.8tt setup. Don't forsee any plenum issues, as I won't be running it like Andy was, however i'm sure we'll redesign and tweek them if needed.
won't be running it like Andy was??? don't tell me your shying away from running 1.5 bar, thats like putting 275's on the tail end of blackie!
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:14 PM
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Brother - i'm going to be running 1.6 bar but I won't see anywhere near the heat soak and abuse that Andy put his through on the track as mine is a street car for now hahaha buuuut in time she'll be a track rat, but for now we have to go out to the masses and preach the good word of unbridled power, huge flames and molten rubber.
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Old 11-19-2009, 08:25 PM
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One question for the experts, I noticed that on the factory 935's they ran the injectors pointing up towards that butterflies going against the air flow. I'm assuming this was to give the fuel more time to atomize??? or is there other logic to it?





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Old 11-19-2009, 08:26 PM
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Gabe,

You are probably right about the abuse. We figured there were three reasons for busted parts. Heat from sustained running (further exacerbated by poor heat management in the 914 engine compartment), boost pressure, and not having enough compressor bypass (blow off valve) capacity.

We ended up running three big blow off valves. One on each intercooler (2), and one on the balance tube between the manifolds. BTW, I also used the TWM's.

Pete, you are correct about the 935 manifolds and the atomization.

Andy

Last edited by mcneil141; 11-23-2009 at 04:51 AM..
Old 11-23-2009, 04:48 AM
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I have been interested in going to ITBs too for a while. From a previous conversation with Hargett it looks like those ITBs will be the HOT ticket once he has the turbo plenums finished. They are going to be mold formed so less welds and great flowing. Which diameter should I go with if I want to build my motor to handle 8000+ rpms on a 3.4 930 race engine? Target would be 700+whp. How much larger should the ITB bore be than the intake port size?
Old 11-23-2009, 08:59 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #50 (permalink)
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Not all 935's had the fuel injectors pointed upwards against the airflow.

Different teams were constantly fabricating and trying different things to get an edge on the competition and yes it was to help fuel atomization.

I remember seeing some 935 motors with the injectors mounted around 6-8" up the injector stacks pointed upwards against the airflow and not all of them used throttle butterflies, some had a long slide valve that went through each intake stack so it was completely out of the air flow at full throttle.
And some teams used high butterfly injection with the butterflies mounted higher in the stacks.
Old 11-23-2009, 10:15 AM
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I have ITB's on my tt engine and let me tell you . It is a pain in the butt trying to sync them every couple of months. Anyone have any suggestions?
Old 12-27-2009, 06:53 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #52 (permalink)
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Howdy Chaps,

Long winded one here, bear with me....

ITB flexibility…or any modern engine mgmt equipped air cooled flat 6 for that matter.

In a word, ITB’s are fantastic when coupled with modern engine mgt designed to exploit their benefits and can be more Mr Hyde or Dr Jeckyl when called for than any single throttle body setup. The original 2.6’s maiden voyage was a spin around the block from the shop with the owner aboard as pictured here. That white Explorer is turning out of TN State Highway Patrol office one driveway over from the shop For a machine capable of this level of angst under power, it cruised casually past without raising any eyebrows – as an old schooler, I’ve yet to come to grips with power/docile nature but more on that in a moment. On a short schedule before Sebring it was driven on the street to identify any minute detail that might need addressing and as a commuter spent many a night in Pat’s driveway at home alongside the family car. The GT 1 was no different. These machines are driven around the shop grounds, on/off trailers, in the pits with no drama. But, to refine this system to such a degree of utility requires some vary careful tuning on a load varying dyno like this one to work through every transition possible, an inertia dyno is not adequate. As you can get an indication here, rather than just continual single pulls, they’ll spend lots of time fully exploring many sites on these high resolution maps. He just spent 3 hours in the cell last night on only the initial setup for the new PMO ITB PWR EFI NA system. But once a base is established, it’s relatively quick after that.

I’ve recently begun sifting through years of PWR’s/customer in car race videos, doing summaries and uploading them to youtube, here’s what’s out there on Pat Williams Race Videos currently. As they let the camera run continually, what’s not on here is hours of footage I’ve trimmed that applies directly to this drivability discussion. So, I’ve taken a piece from a typical Saturday, this being Putnam, click here. After 15 minutes at up to 7,500 (for a good heat soak), the clip starts as he rolls into the pits for tire temps. Though the tach only runs down to 2k, this is about 1k idle. Once complete, it rolls off barely touching the throttle on a 3 disc Tilton, idles at pit out and then runs through 3 gears to 7k plus before turn one. It’s tuned speed/density on an open map and in lieu of an idle motor/air slide, cold idle is completely controlled with ignition. GT 1 runs in the same groups as the latest 4litre, sequential shift, ABS, SC extremely refined factory machines which unlike ALMS/GrandAM run unlimited in PCA at over 500hp. Competing against these with a 14 old torsion bar based chassis long BH 4 spd without even a brake booster is utterly hopeless if your motor is not there for you at all times – there are no flat spots.

Now, 935’s (sigh) and modern painless drivability. As an old schooler (a rabid IMSA race enthusiast and recent 22 year old college grad with a 911, I was there for the 935 hay day in 78-79) I am seemingly forever programmed by these beasts to correlate performance with a raucous nature and some drivability issues. They were anything but tractable, idling - if you wanted to call it that - at high rpm, belching black smoke from richness, that cadence of locked fully advanced distributor in concert with the cams, it sometimes took all the crew to maneuver one out of the garages as a very high active first in conjunction with a locked spool meant they generally only wanted to turn when in reverse. Off boost, they had no power, you could hear the cylinder pressure build (along with the sound) as they reached a rather narrow explosive power band. But as everyone was equally hindered, it didn't really matter. They got a little better with the switch to Kugelfisher from Bosch later on but were still hairy. Parts were readily available, were of superb quality and the Whittingtons/Pauls/Fields did not hesitate to use their stuff up (ruin it, actually), these being qualifying and twin 30 minute sprint races of an afternoon, the former would put an engine in for each sprint for their 2-3 cars if excessive boost & ambient heat had taken its toll. Have a picture (slide, if anyone remembers those) of the trash can outside the main Road Atlanta garage next to the Goodyear garage full: pair of headers, a turbo, 3 heads and a ruined crank. When they got too hot the factory blew more air on them with a flat fan, they cinched exhaust valves so elaborate oil galleys were run out to the guides, suffered from tremendous blow by so they networked the crankcase vent through the cage, etc… Surely, I thought when it was announced that this 3.4L twin turbo would be built that unlike the 2.L TT, the 2 2.6L TT ’s and the 3.0L TT that the good old 935 days would have to come back. How could you make that kind off power without all the baggage of a Hollywood starlet? I was quite disappointed – initially - though this machine sounds every bit as deafening and purposeful as any 935 under load, engine mgmt is so accurate it needs none of those band aids. The worst part, there’s no hint of the menace within at idle, my most favorite part, but I guess time marches on….





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Old 12-29-2009, 11:09 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #53 (permalink)
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an inertia dyno is not adequate. As you can get an indication here, rather than just continual single pulls, they’ll spend lots of time fully exploring many sites on these high resolution maps. He just spent 3 hours in the cell last night on only the initial setup

You are very correct, a "loading" dyno is a must have when tuning partial throttle on EFI setups
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Old 01-08-2010, 07:39 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #54 (permalink)
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This is not a turbo but it might give someone an idea of how to put ITB's under a normal intake manifold.

Old 01-11-2010, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Guldan View Post
Howdy Chaps,

Long winded one here, bear with me....

ITB flexibility…or any modern engine mgmt equipped air cooled flat 6 for that matter.

In a word, ITB’s are fantastic when coupled with modern engine mgt designed to exploit their benefits and can be more Mr Hyde or Dr Jeckyl when called for than any single throttle body setup. The original 2.6’s maiden voyage was a spin around the block from the shop with the owner aboard as pictured here. That white Explorer is turning out of TN State Highway Patrol office one driveway over from the shop For a machine capable of this level of angst under power, it cruised casually past without raising any eyebrows – as an old schooler, I’ve yet to come to grips with power/docile nature but more on that in a moment. On a short schedule before Sebring it was driven on the street to identify any minute detail that might need addressing and as a commuter spent many a night in Pat’s driveway at home alongside the family car. The GT 1 was no different. These machines are driven around the shop grounds, on/off trailers, in the pits with no drama. But, to refine this system to such a degree of utility requires some vary careful tuning on a load varying dyno like this one to work through every transition possible, an inertia dyno is not adequate. As you can get an indication here, rather than just continual single pulls, they’ll spend lots of time fully exploring many sites on these high resolution maps. He just spent 3 hours in the cell last night on only the initial setup for the new PMO ITB PWR EFI NA system. But once a base is established, it’s relatively quick after that.

I’ve recently begun sifting through years of PWR’s/customer in car race videos, doing summaries and uploading them to youtube, here’s what’s out there on Pat Williams Race Videos currently. As they let the camera run continually, what’s not on here is hours of footage I’ve trimmed that applies directly to this drivability discussion. So, I’ve taken a piece from a typical Saturday, this being Putnam, click here. After 15 minutes at up to 7,500 (for a good heat soak), the clip starts as he rolls into the pits for tire temps. Though the tach only runs down to 2k, this is about 1k idle. Once complete, it rolls off barely touching the throttle on a 3 disc Tilton, idles at pit out and then runs through 3 gears to 7k plus before turn one. It’s tuned speed/density on an open map and in lieu of an idle motor/air slide, cold idle is completely controlled with ignition. GT 1 runs in the same groups as the latest 4litre, sequential shift, ABS, SC extremely refined factory machines which unlike ALMS/GrandAM run unlimited in PCA at over 500hp. Competing against these with a 14 old torsion bar based chassis long BH 4 spd without even a brake booster is utterly hopeless if your motor is not there for you at all times – there are no flat spots.

Now, 935’s (sigh) and modern painless drivability. As an old schooler (a rabid IMSA race enthusiast and recent 22 year old college grad with a 911, I was there for the 935 hay day in 78-79) I am seemingly forever programmed by these beasts to correlate performance with a raucous nature and some drivability issues. They were anything but tractable, idling - if you wanted to call it that - at high rpm, belching black smoke from richness, that cadence of locked fully advanced distributor in concert with the cams, it sometimes took all the crew to maneuver one out of the garages as a very high active first in conjunction with a locked spool meant they generally only wanted to turn when in reverse. Off boost, they had no power, you could hear the cylinder pressure build (along with the sound) as they reached a rather narrow explosive power band. But as everyone was equally hindered, it didn't really matter. They got a little better with the switch to Kugelfisher from Bosch later on but were still hairy. Parts were readily available, were of superb quality and the Whittingtons/Pauls/Fields did not hesitate to use their stuff up (ruin it, actually), these being qualifying and twin 30 minute sprint races of an afternoon, the former would put an engine in for each sprint for their 2-3 cars if excessive boost & ambient heat had taken its toll. Have a picture (slide, if anyone remembers those) of the trash can outside the main Road Atlanta garage next to the Goodyear garage full: pair of headers, a turbo, 3 heads and a ruined crank. When they got too hot the factory blew more air on them with a flat fan, they cinched exhaust valves so elaborate oil galleys were run out to the guides, suffered from tremendous blow by so they networked the crankcase vent through the cage, etc… Surely, I thought when it was announced that this 3.4L twin turbo would be built that unlike the 2.L TT, the 2 2.6L TT ’s and the 3.0L TT that the good old 935 days would have to come back. How could you make that kind off power without all the baggage of a Hollywood starlet? I was quite disappointed – initially - though this machine sounds every bit as deafening and purposeful as any 935 under load, engine mgmt is so accurate it needs none of those band aids. The worst part, there’s no hint of the menace within at idle, my most favorite part, but I guess time marches on….
Peter, thanks for the excellent write up and contrast to the 'old days'... missed this the first time as was on holiday. I think what u guys are doing over there at PWR is fantastic with meticulous application of modern EFI and attention to all tuning parameters to squeeze every ounce of potential from these A/C T-flat sixes as is possible. Bravo.
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Old 01-12-2010, 06:33 AM
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porschesaur
 
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Howdy Juice,

Just back myself from latitude 12degrees 10 minutes N myself (still trying to figure out how someone could fully exercise a PWR EFI 930 on Curacao) but anywho, long winded response/clarification forthwith....

Can make no claims on their accomplishments. As you'll note under the Pat Williams Racing Homepage link at my site in the sig below, I don’t work for PWR (to rigorous a work schedule for me this late in my career), rather, Pat and I are very good longtime friends, I do all his website/content and am at his shop regularly. With that, let me answer to pm’s in a similar vein with the following: This complete shop access, 32 years of driving/working on 911/930’s and 20 years of doing high end restorations on machines well into the realm of “collectability” and far beyond the level 911 turbo’s may ever achieve gives one a different perspective that I hope may benefit the younger enthusiasts here and is thus my sole objective for being on this board.

We all own a machine that can be hugely expensive to restore/modify that’s worth relatively little at the end so lacking high resale to justify pain encountered along the way, what’s left is essentially entertainment value. Some fulfill that entertainment value with long term projects and I’m with them on that, this machine meandered over a 12 year period to completion, so in good conscience, I can’t/don’t post on those … but would hope they ‘d limit any collateral engine damage along the way as our quality original parts are increasingly NLA.

On the other hand, for the chap who simply wants to get the best “bang” (figuratively, not literally) for his buck as quickly as possible and to then just get in and drive, be it track or street, the above referenced exposure/experience may provide some benefit to someone in his 20’s/30’s for which pulling the trigger on a low/mid five figure check is a sacrifice he’d like to endure one time and not in multiples in “hopes” of getting it right at some point. And that’s where my unbridled enthusiasm comes in for what PWR”s doing and thus any posts related to the topics y’all are discussing. For all athletes, there’s a point where the pontificating ends and the rubber meets the road and it couldn’t be more demonstrative in our case: PCA endurance racing. Positively the best affirmation your stuff works and will last, the latter an absolute mantra for PWR as best exemplified by the 3.4 TT GT 1 that won Daytona Oktoberfest on its original season and a half motor with over 60 race hours on it!


OK, nuff of that. Earlier question regarding a Carrera manifold vs ITB’s: PWR built and campaigned 2 identical 2.61 TT’s in GT 3 in 07, this one with a Carrera manifold (CM) and one with ITB’s. Hours of dyno and year’s racing provided valuable data. Though a Carrera (CM) manifold provided all the head room necessary on the 2.1TT, with somewhat similar torque build as ITB’s it ran into a wall at 7,100 at this displacement leaving about 9k on the table - so vital to making a small performance indexed motor competitive. Actually this ceiling was not a bad thing, the H&R boys objective was to be a rule changer for PCA (achieved), they set the all time PCA track record at VIR for any class and this high end power trail off actually worked as a subtle governor because as you can see here at Mid Ohio, they absolutely take no prisoners on the track with those touching red bars on the AIM meaning redline exceeded. That driving style would never work with ITB’s; they become such an unbridled accelerometer at high rev’s compared to a CM, you’re at rocker breaking rev’s almost before you can shift. So, when PCA changed the rules bumping them to GT 2, mindful of this manifold’s difficulty with high velocity gas management, PWR built them a 3.0 TT to fatten the low end torque curve and they picked up right where they left off as anyone who was at Road Atlanta in April saw.

To close out the subject, as ITB users know, 6 shaft/linkage setups are preferred for accuracy/longevity but they are very spendy. PMO has developed a very nice reasonably priced set of twin common shaft manifolds for EFI use here. Here’s a pic while it was being wired/plumbed up and a distributor built to suit a ref signal pickup. Pat’s completed his first speed/density map for this set on a 2.7litre NA motor and now begun an alph/N map on the same setup to suit pressure-differential challenged overlapped cam motors that can’t provide enough resolution for a good open loop street motor map. I’ll post some more pics/video soon. With some light mod’s, these might provide a more economical starting point for a street oriented turbo motor.


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Old 01-14-2010, 11:41 AM
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ITBs set up to check out fro 2008 PRI show

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Old 01-16-2010, 10:35 PM
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I like.

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Old 01-17-2010, 08:34 AM
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they are from Jenvey the also have plenum for boost
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Old 01-17-2010, 12:08 PM
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